WP 13 | How to Work with Church Staff Members - Live Consulting with Melissa Altman
Welcome to the latest episode of The Wise Practice Podcast, where we explore the challenges and rewards of building a successful therapy practice. In this episode, we dive into the topic of working with church staff members and adding services to your practice as a therapist. Our guest is Melissa Altman, an LMHC in Indiana who has been counseling for eight years and recently transitioned into private practice. With her expertise and experience working with faith-based clients, we explore the unique challenges and opportunities that come with working in a faith-based practice and how to market your services effectively.
The Importance of Creating a Strong Brand
Whitney starts out by sharing resources from her consulting service to help practice owners grow their businesses. She shares the importance of creating a strong brand for your practice. Whitney discussed how having a clear brand that aligns with your values can help attract your ideal clients and set your practice apart. She also touched on the importance of SEO and how it can help potential clients find your practice online. Register for the webinar with this link: webinar registration.
The Benefits of Networking with Churches
Another key takeaway from the episode was the importance of networking with churches in your community. Melissa shared her experience of working in a church counseling center for several years and how that helped her build a strong network of referral sources. She also discussed how speaking engagements and workshops at churches can help raise awareness about your practice and attract new clients.
The Challenges and Rewards of a Faith-Based Practice
Melissa shared her personal journey of transitioning from working in a church counseling center to starting her own private practice. She talked about the unique challenges and rewards that come with working in a faith-based practice, including the importance of understanding and respecting the religious beliefs of your clients. She also discussed how her own faith informs her approach to therapy and how she incorporates spirituality into her work.
The Importance of Continuing on Your Professional Journey
The final takeaway from the episode was the importance of continuing on your professional journey as a therapist. Melissa shared her own experience of transitioning from working in a church counseling center to starting her own practice and how it has been both challenging and rewarding. She emphasized the importance of being open to new opportunities and continuing to learn and grow as a therapist.
In conclusion, this episode of The Wise Practice Podcast provided valuable insights and tips for therapists looking to work with faith-based clients and add services to their practice. From creating a strong brand to networking with churches and continuing on your professional journey, the discussion highlighted the unique challenges and opportunities that come with working in a faith-based practice.
Links and Resources From the Episode
Instagram for Missy: @missydawn111
Wise Practice Membership Community
Connect with Whitney
-
How to Work with Church Staff Members - Live Consulting with Melissa Altman | WP 13
===
Whitney Ownes: aren't we all looking for ways to grow our faith-based practice? How do we market to our ideal? And how do we market in a way that's effective and helpful in our practice growth? If you're looking for tips and steps to grow your faith-based practice, please join me for a free live webinar on Tuesday, January 31st at one o'clock Eastern.
Whitney Ownes: During that webinar, I'm gonna talk about the importance of creating a strong brand that displays your values. You will learn aspects of marketing such as seo, networking of churches, and developing speaking engagements in your practice. And don't worry, I'll leave a q and A at the end for all of your marketing questions to get registered for this webinar.
Whitney Ownes: Head to the show notes. And hit the link to register or go to whitney owens.com/events. Looking forward to seeing you on January 31st at one o'clock Eastern time for our live webinar on how to market your faith-based practice.
Whitney Ownes: Welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. I'm so glad you're here to hang out with me today. Looking forward to our third part of our four-part series on live consulting calls that I'm doing with members of the Wise Practice community. So today I'm gonna be talking with my friend Missy, about how to add services to your practice on working with church staff members, and that can look like a lot of different things.
Whitney Ownes: So we're gonna be diving into that today. But before we do, I wanted to tell you a little bit about Missy here. She is an LM H C in Indiana. She's been counseling for eight years. She moved into private practice. In May, 2022 and is finding it to be both challenging and rewarding. Her favorite place in the world is Glacier National Park.
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. , welcome to the show.
Melissa Altman: Thanks.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Well, why don't we first just start out and you share a little bit more about your practice. Um, you know, if you wanna share a little bit about kind of starting it, but I specifically wanna hear like, where are you at now? What kind of clients do you work with?
Whitney Ownes: What's the setup?
Melissa Altman: Sure. So I worked in a church counseling center, um, for about the last seven and a half years. And about the last year of that, um, the Lord just began moving in my heart to consider stepping out on my own. Um, and so I did that last May and set up it's. Me a little one person office in, um, a local business building downtown in our town.
Melissa Altman: Um, so yeah, it's been, it's been a big adventure, I would say. Um, currently I'm in general practice. Um, I, I do see a few teenagers, but it's mostly adults. I prefer adults actually. Um, and, uh, specializations, uh, with chronic. Uh, working with pastors, ministry families and missionaries, um, anxiety, depression, grief, and loss.
Melissa Altman: Those are probably my main, the things I focus on most, or the things that people are referred to me most for.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. And, and specifically what got you into that area as far as working with church staff, missionaries, things like that. Anything specific?
Melissa Altman: Sure. I mean, our entire, um, lived experience in our marriage.
Melissa Altman: My husband and I have been married 31 years and our whole lived experience has been in ministry. So, um, you know, we've experienced the highest highs and certainly. Some very deep suffering that has gone with that too. Mm-hmm. . And so it feels really natural to me to work with pastors and their families.
Melissa Altman: And we also lived overseas, um, for about two and a half years early in our marriage. And so, you know, I have a heart for global workers also. So a lot, a lot of it has just come out of my own lived experience. Yeah. Where did you. So we lived in Ukraine. Wow. In the Crimean Peninsula. And then we've lived in Brooklyn, New York for about seven years, Charlotte, North Carolina.
Melissa Altman: And then we've been here for 11.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. And remind me what city you're in.
Melissa Altman: Uh, we're in Evansville. Evansville. Oh yeah.
Whitney Ownes: Okay, great. I love Charlotte, by the way. I think it's a beautiful place. Yeah, it's a great place. Yeah. Okay, well let's jump into your questions. So if you wanna go ahead and ask your question today.
Melissa Altman: Sure. So I'm definitely, um, interested in working with church staff members and how to kind of build that, um, and just what are best practices around that. And then also specifically, uh, you know, working in situations where there has been like a abuse on a church staff and helping people heal from, you know, , uh, what I see a lot of seems to be like narcissistic abuse and leadership.
Melissa Altman: Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. So are you kind of asking more of the clinical side of how do we work with them or more of how do we work with them on a business side? Like how do we get them bought into therapy?
Melissa Altman: Sure. I would say probably more on a business side. Uhhuh . You know, connecting with people. Um, I, I do still see a few relatives of staff members and staff members of the church counseling center that I was at before.
Melissa Altman: Um, but that's, That, that's not a huge number at all. Um, and then there are probably four or five other churches in the area that have staff that I work with already. But I would love to expand that because we have tons of churches here in our area.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Well, I think the first thing for us to do with this question is to identify what the challenges are.
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. Right. So what would you say are some of the challenges you're.
Melissa Altman: Um, I would say some of the challenges are, um, like kind of walking in as a cold call to a place where I'm not already known. Mm-hmm. , like going into a new, and, and I don't, like, I don't have trouble doing that. I mean, I, I probably met with five different lead pastors when I first started Sojourn, but I do want to expand that.
Melissa Altman: Mm-hmm. , um, So I think that would be one of the challenges is kind of, uh, earning a hearing if they don't already know me.
Whitney Ownes: Oh, I love the way you said that. Earning a hearing that like really hits, hits the nail on the head of what the experience can be like, right? Yes. Yeah. So first I would say start with your own church.
Whitney Ownes: Right? Okay. Because that's where you already have some. You know? Right. Um, now depending on sizes of churches, is really gonna determine how far that relationship can go. Um, for you, Missy, what would you say is the size of your current church?
Melissa Altman: The, the congregation that we are in is currently running probably about 1500.
Melissa Altman: That's big. So yeah, I mean, when we first moved here it was more around 3,500. Um Oh wow. You know, but with Covid, and then there have also been some pretty big, what I call like a church apocalypse. We've had a couple of those. Um, so right now we're running about 15. Yeah. Okay.
Whitney Ownes: So I would say that is large enough that you could work with some of the people at the church.
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. . And so I think the thing to be considering with dual relationships is just making sure you don't have a relationship with them outside of counseling. That you're not seeing them on a regular basis at church. They're maybe not in your same small group, maybe, um, not in your same friend group, things like that.
Whitney Ownes: I think it's totally okay if they attend your church and you happen to see them on a Sunday morning, it's okay. I mean, some therapists don't like that. I think it's okay, and I think clients find some comfort in the fact of, okay, well my pastor referred me to you and you also attend my church. We have a similar faith background, and they like that.
Melissa Altman: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, if I know that someone who comes to me goes to the church that I go to, I try to address that, like in our initial informed consent. But that doesn't always happen. Um, you know, so I do try to, I actually try to lay pretty low at church, um mm-hmm. . A lot for this reason. ?
Whitney Ownes: Yeah, I Now I wanna share a funny story.
Whitney Ownes: What we're talking about. But I had a client who had terrible anxiety and one time she went up to my husband after communion and asked where I was . And he didn't know that that was one of my clients. He was like, um, How do you know Whitney? And, and she was like, yeah, I see her for therapy. He was like, all right.
Whitney Ownes: And he came home and was like, well, one of your clients spoke to me today cuz I had missed that Sunday. So it was really interesting. Um, .
Melissa Altman: Right. So, and actually my husband who is on staff also Uhhuh , he gets back a lot. Oh, okay. That's funny. Like people will go up to him and say, oh, I'm sure you know that I've been seeing Missy, blah, blah.
Melissa Altman: And he's like, uh, no, but okay, I wouldn't know that.
Whitney Ownes: That's right. That's right. Um, yeah. Okay. And so starting with your own church first. So meeting with your own pastor, letting them know kind of about what you offer. And then I would say ask that pastor who he knows, What other churches are you communicating with that maybe you could introduce me to other pastors?
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. I think this is specifically helpful within certain denominations like Catholicism. You know, if you're meeting with your own priest, that priest probably knows other Catholic churches. or, um, you know, I'm a Methodist and so when I first moved to Savannah, my husband's a Methodist youth pastor and I worked with teenagers mm-hmm.
Whitney Ownes: I was like, well, connect me with the other youth pastors. And so I started meeting all those youth pastors and that really helped me grow my adolescent caseload.
Melissa Altman: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a really good idea. Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. And then I would keep your ears open too for other people who know pastors. Uhhuh.
Whitney Ownes: Right. Because. or other people that are laypeople in their church, if it's a different church and saying to them, Hey, do, do you think you could introduce me to the pastor? Or could we go to lunch together sometime? Sure. Use every connection you have. And I think a lot of therapists feel nervous, uncomfortable, or they're like being too salesy.
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. . But you know this, and the truth is, pastors need good therapists to
Melissa Altman: refer to. Right. They are looking for. Right. Clients
Whitney Ownes: are looking for good Christian counselors and they are going to their pastors and
Melissa Altman: asking for it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had an interesting thing happen some months ago with a client who said, who is on a church staff, and she said, I went to the list of counselors that my church recommends, and I intentionally didn't go see any of them.
Melissa Altman: and, and this was just her own situation, but I thought that that was an interesting take on like, I can have a presence here as a Christian counselor, um, but I may not approach that particular church to be on this. Mm-hmm. ,
Whitney Ownes: that sounds like a good idea. Yeah. I think another thing you can do in your time meeting with pastors is they're getting to know you.
Whitney Ownes: I mean, I think a lot of pastors are weary about therapists for multiple reasons, right? So they might think that you're gonna lead them astray in their faith. They might think you don't understand the tenets of the faith, um, that you're gonna be two psychology oriented, right? Um, or can they trust you?
Whitney Ownes: All this stuff. So I think you could offer them, um, some free, like speaking engagements at their church mm-hmm. to be able to kind of just say, Hey, here's who I am. So that might be, um, Hey, I'll teach on a Wednesday night on a healthy communication with your spouse. Yeah. Or you know, if you worked with teenagers, um, hey, I'll come to the youth group and do a one hour thing for parents because parents are the ones that are gonna schedule not teenagers.
Whitney Ownes: Sure. Um, with parents on how to, um, monitor screen time. Like it can be something pretty simple, but then people get to know you and see your face and hear about you. And I'll tell you, those churches, especially if you're in a small town, they're gonna tell other churches, oh, Missy came and spoke on this topic and it was awesome.
Whitney Ownes: Oh, can I get her at my.
Melissa Altman: Right. Yeah. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Um, so let's talk a little bit about, cuz you kind of mentioned this, this, this idea of cold calling and, and how do I actually create that connection? So of course we wanna create a warm connection if possible, and that's knowing someone who knows someone.
Whitney Ownes: Right. But that's not always gonna be the. So I do think that calling is a great idea. Just calling the staff office or an email and just introducing yourself. But instead of saying, I want to tell Pastor so-and-so that I'm a therapist and I'm awesome saying, Hey, I was wondering if I could bring by some coffee or take somebody to lunch and get to know your congregation.
Whitney Ownes: Hmm. Right. We, we are therapists and we love getting to know people, and it's really through us getting to know them that they're gonna learn to trust us. Right. And so when you, when you interact with them, so let's say they're like, sure you can, we'll, we'll take lunch, bring it to, bring it by, right? Mm-hmm.
Whitney Ownes: so bring it by and just saying like, tell me more about you, like pastor, tell me more about your, your church, your congregation, why you got into ministry. What are the struggles that you have in mental health?
Melissa Altman: Sure. Right.
Whitney Ownes: And really listening to that and offering. Right there on the spot. Hmm. So they might say something like, um, well I don't know what to do when couples come in my office and argue, well, you probably have two or three things that you could, that you would do Missy, if a couple was arguing in your office.
Whitney Ownes: And you just tell him to do those and he's gonna be like, wow, you're
Melissa Altman: good . That's a good idea too. Just having some, some good resource suggestions.
Whitney Ownes: Definitely. And then I think if there's, um, anything that you feel like you can offer as far as. Um, hey, I'll offer $10 off anyone you refer, or, Hey, I'll offer free consulting calls for you.
Whitney Ownes: Um, if you don't really know what to do with somebody, give me a call. We could talk about if they even meet the qualifications to come to therapy or not. Sure. And so whatever you can do to offer a service to
Melissa Altman: them. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, that's a great idea too.
Whitney Ownes: And honestly, what I have found as far as church staff come into therapy, they struggle, right.
Whitney Ownes: They don't wanna admit they're paying their failure or it's taboo to go to therapy. But what I've noticed is if you start seeing enough of their congregation and their congregation keeps saying, I'm getting better. I'm getting better. Right? And then they start calling you,
Melissa Altman: right? Yeah. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, having, having credibility in the community is a really important piece.
Melissa Altman: Mm-hmm. and, um, and I like that idea of trying to offer a free service or offering a free consult call. Like that's a great idea. Some of those things I already do, but I don't use it at, like, I haven't thought about matching that with like an intentional outreach. .
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely. And I think especially even with your own church, like your own involvement goes really far.
Whitney Ownes: Not that we wanna think of church's work and that's where the struggle is, right? Sure. But like, I can't tell you how many times people come up to me at church with questions about mental health, or I need a therapist in my own church. Probably sends me the most referrals. ?
Melissa Altman: Yeah. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I get, I do get a lot of referrals through our church, or even through like families who used to attend our church and knew that I was on staff at the counseling center.
Melissa Altman: You know, sometimes they seek me out here and that's, that's great.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Well, one thing that a lot of churches have is like a pastor's discretionary.
Melissa Altman: Oh yeah. Yeah. And so
Whitney Ownes: they have that for people at need. Um, like here, here in Savannah, um, like our church has it for like four people when they walk in and they need bus tickets.
Whitney Ownes: Hmm. Um, or families in need of housing or whatever the case may be. That's what that fund is for. And the pastor can just decide. And so, That would be something to consider if churches are like, well, I'm not sure that our people can come for therapy saying, hey, well if you do have this as an option, some churches cover the first session or some churches cover four sessions to get someone in the right direction.
Whitney Ownes: Um, because I think there's something to be said of. My pastor referred to me and they're covering the first session, why would I not go
Melissa Altman: right? Yeah, right. That's a great idea. Um, sometimes, yeah, that's a great idea. Just to ask if they would maybe make that part of it, or, I mean, you know, the, the church that we attend, they have it as a staff benefit.
Melissa Altman: Um, a certain number of sessions covered per year, and then beyond that, they still cover. The session fee. Wow, that's great. So yeah, so important. Like I would love to have some spaces to even try to offer some of those different options for pastors to consider maybe.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah, definitely. You know, another thing I did, um, a lot more when I was a solo practice owner was even if somebody wasn't referred by their church mm-hmm.
Whitney Ownes: if they talked about their church a lot or talked about their pastor, I would ask for a release of information and call the pastor and just say, Hey, I want you to know this person's seeing me. You would be amazed the stuff pastors will tell you cuz they've known the family for 30 years, you know, and so they tell you a lot of history that you wouldn't have heard.
Whitney Ownes: But I do it so that the pastor knows who I am. Right, right. So now, so now I've made a connection and then if the call's going well, I'll be like, oh, you know what? I'm really enjoying talking to you. Could I take you to coffee sometime and learn more about you? Sure. Right. So, so we don't wanna use clients to our advantage by any means.
Whitney Ownes: But if a client is okay signing a release and is okay with you calling somebody Yeah. You know, doing it so that you can get your name out so you can help more people is not a bad thing.
Melissa Altman: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Um, so, so where the counseling center I used to be at is kind of on the outer edges of our larger community, and so now I'm very much more downtown and in my five minute drive to the office.
Melissa Altman: There are probably six or eight churches I drive past. Mm-hmm. . I've thought about just making a list and maybe trying to reach out to those pastors just to let them know like, I'm in the proximity here. Close.
Whitney Ownes: Yes. I think that's really great. Um, I know some people will send out flyers and things like that.
Whitney Ownes: I, and I think it does kind of depend on your town and your area. Sure. But I, I think a phone call or a personal touch goes a lot further. So maybe it's that you put together a flyer with. A bag of coffee, cuz every, every church needs more coffee, you know, and you walk in and you say, Hey, this is a gift. I live in the, I'm in the neighborhood.
Whitney Ownes: Just wanna introduce myself. And then, you know, throw your sticker to your practice on there or something. That way when people see it, they're like, great, what's this? So in counseling, what, tell me more about that. You know? Yeah. I, I am a big believer in gifts or for the person we give them to, not for our.
Whitney Ownes: And I think a ton of people, it's all about their logo, right? Like, you know, you speak at an event and they give you their cup and you're like, really? Like I spoke a your ago, . But, but I think if you're gonna give them coffee and it's gonna be sitting there, they need to at least know it was from you. It doesn't have to be sojourn all over it, but just somewhere, yeah.
Whitney Ownes: On there. The other thing I do that has really helped the relationship with churches is thank you. So anytime we get a referral, we write, and this is churches and everybody, we write a handwritten thank you note. Okay? People do not get those anymore. Now, if you have a release of information, you can put a little more on the note, but most of the time you don't have that when you get the referral.
Whitney Ownes: Sure. And so we make it very generic. It, um, in fact, the note does not say water's edge counseling. On the front it says thank you on the front. Thank you. Okay. The back has waters edge counseling on it. If you flip it over. Okay. And it just is something simple that says, thank you Pastor Jack. You know, thank you so much for always remembering our practice.
Whitney Ownes: We love working with you. We always appreciate your referrals. If we can ever help with anything else, let
Melissa Altman: us know. Yeah. That's such a great idea. Like following up intentionally. Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. . . Yeah. So just saying if a, as your practice grows, that's what your admin would do for
Melissa Altman: you, ? Yes. At some point I hope.
Whitney Ownes: yes. So my admin does that for me and she signs 'em with my name and sends 'em out for me. Yeah. And then we do gifts as well. Um, we fought, we usually do gifts like twice a year. In fact, two years ago for Christmas, we did these little, um, these little snowballs and they were like little snowball candies, and my pastor loved them.
Whitney Ownes: Loved them. He, he went crazy about 'em. So it was humorous. Right.
Melissa Altman: That and that was a really good choice too. .
Whitney Ownes: Yes, yes. And went really well. Um, so yeah, so I try to do follow ups and where it could be that I'm sending him a text and saying, Hey, I'm thinking about you, hope things are going well at your church.
Whitney Ownes: Or if I know something that's going on at the church, I might check in on that situation. Um, hey, I heard this is going on. Let me know if I can be helpful. Sure.
Melissa Altman: So, yeah.
Whitney Ownes: Do you have any other challenges or questions that we haven't addressed?
Melissa Altman: Um, I mean, I think probably the, the other bigger question would just be some resources when I do encounter working with staff or ex staff in narcissistic.
Melissa Altman: I mean, this is more of a clinical question, but um, I'm not exaggerating to say I probably have five unique clients I'm working with right now who are victims of this kind of behavior. And so I'm always on the outlook for good resources. . Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Well, hopefully someone's listening, they're gonna email you and give you some resources.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. , I'll be honest, like, I mean, I love the political work, but I'm not deep in it the way I used to be. You know? Sure. Most of my time is spent with business consulting. Um, now I don't know what your thoughts are, anything on this, but I li listened to the Mars Hill Podcast. Yes. Yes. And I felt that was really helpful, even for my own healing and thought process, listening to that, um, and being able to more directly see in action what it looks like.
Whitney Ownes: Okay. So, so that was, that was helpful. Um, but I don't have any other specific like resources or books on Yeah. Narcissism in the church. But you know, Missy, maybe you can write.
Melissa Altman: I don't know, maybe someday we'll see.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, um, before we close up here, I wanted to, um, provide a few minutes to talk about the Wise Practice membership community.
Whitney Ownes: I know that you have joined Yeah. That a few months ago. And so could you share kind of what that's like for you and how you found that helpful in your.
Melissa Altman: Sure. So like I mentioned before, you know, a year ago at this time, I had no idea that I would be in private practice. Like I didn't go into the field dreaming of this.
Melissa Altman: You know, it, it, it. , it really wasn't on my radar. And so when it began to come on my radar, um, I was very much like I was green, I was a novice. Um, and I still am in a lot of ways, but I really feel like, um, the membership due that I pay is well worth every penny. Um, you know, I think professionally it's a big help because, um, we're all working together towards similar things.
Melissa Altman: Um, but there's a wealth of ideas and a wealth of resources. Um, and I think also Whitney. Having some access to you just in terms of being able to see like your professional side, but also your personal side and, um, the really neat way that you navigate, like having fun, but also being able to be serious, you know?
Melissa Altman: Um, also the idea of like, um, kind of being spontaneous, but also having a good. Hmm. So I, I benefit a lot from, um, our weekly calls and from our small group call. I mean, I'm not able to make every weekly call, but as often as I can be in it, I am. And you know, since you record 'em, they're always there. For me to go back to.
Melissa Altman: So I mean, for me in this season, it's been a really huge benefit. And also I never would've thought of the possibility of maybe leading a group practice at some point if I hadn't been part of this group. And so, you know, Sometimes I feel like I might just dip my toe into that water, um, because I would love to consult.
Melissa Altman: Um, and so I don't, I don't know what it all holds, but, but the, the wise practice community has really been an important piece just of my growth and feeling supported in this.
Whitney Ownes: Well, you have given me such kind words, so I appreciate that and I'm really happy that it's when you grow your practice, cuz that's my passion.
Whitney Ownes: Mm-hmm. . And so it's really cool to. To hear you share that it's doing the very thing that I was hoping it would do. . Yeah. Um, and you know, I'm laughing because I actually am extremely rigid person, , and I'm an Enneagram type one. Right. And so in my own therapy and in my own work, I am working really hard on being spontaneous and having more fun.
Whitney Ownes: So I'm glad that that is coming out of. Oh
Melissa Altman: yeah. I mean like, I really wanna affirm that because that's one of the things that I appreciate most about you is like, you are well-planned, but also, um, I feel like you let us see a very genuine side of yourself, and that's really cool. It's a great combination.
Whitney Ownes: Thank you. Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate you and you being a part of the community and the role that you play and your impact, you know, and being in there. And so thank you for being a part of that and for being with us today. And so for those of you that are listening and your thinking, private practice is kind of lonely.
Whitney Ownes: I'm looking to connect. I'm looking to grow this year. Consider joining the Wise Practice membership community. So the doors are gonna be open February 1st through the third of 2023. Great. If you're interested in that, you can head to the website, whitneys.com, click on memberships, and then you can join my email list there.
Whitney Ownes: You're gonna get first access to joining, and I'm looking forward to hanging out with you and with Missy in the community. ,
Melissa Altman: thanks. Yeah, I think that sounds great. Do it like if you're even thinking about it at all, do it.
Whitney Ownes: Yeah. Thank you, Missy.
Podcast Production and Show Notes by James Marland
