WP 14 | How to get Unstuck in your Practice - live consulting with Brenda Stewart
Summary
In this conversation, Whitney Owens, a successful business consultant, is providing guidance to Brenda Stewart, a therapist looking to expand her practice. Whitney shares valuable insights and advice on staying a cash-based practice, converting clients to cash pay who want to use their insurance benefits, and decisions around space and growing. With Whitney's expert guidance and the support of the Wise Practice Community, Brenda is taking her therapy practice to the next level.
Advice on cash-based vs insurance clients
Whitney helps Brenda think through the pros and cons of taking on insurance based clients. Currently she has a policy of not taking insurance-based clients and only taking cash-based clients. The first piece of advice is there is no wrong answers. Either method is viable. One of the pros of taking insurance is it could potentially open up a larger client base for her business. Whitney also recommends that Brenda should research the insurance reimbursement process and understand how to navigate the paperwork and documentation required. She suggests that Brenda should consider the possibility of hiring a billing specialist to handle the insurance aspect of her business. Overall, Whitney advises Brenda consider the impact of accepting insurance-based clients and to take the necessary steps to stay a cash based practiced before changing to an insurance based practice. Its hard to start a group practice and understand what “normal” is for a group-practice that is 6-months old.
Build a Therapeutic Relationship
The first contact call is important for attracting and scheduling clients. People do not understand how insurance work. It might take a little extra time to explain why a practice is cash pay. You may have to explain superbills and help them check benefits. Investing in a service that understands the receptionist needs of a cash based practice may be one option to increase the conversion rate.
Focus on customer service
Another encouragement is to prioritize exceptional customer service as a way to build loyal relationships with her clients and ensure repeat business. She stresses the importance of being responsive and attentive to the needs of her clients, creating a welcoming and comfortable environment for them, and going above and beyond to exceed their expectations.
Evaluate and adjust
Running a group practice it is easy to over analyze and get stuck. There was a discussion on the use of space and making adjustments. They talk through different ways to get mor use out of her current space as well as alternatives for growing. Whitney advises Brenda to regularly evaluate her business strategies and make adjustments as needed to ensure continued success and growth. She emphasizes exploring different opportunities and partnerships to expand her office.
Links and Resources
Wellspring on Instagram: @wellspringtherapyassociates
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Ep. 14 - How to get Unstuck in your Practice - live consulting with Brenda Stewart
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Whitney Owens: Hello friends and welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. So glad that you're here hanging out with us. I'm looking forward to the end of this series that we're doing on live consulting. I shouldn't say I'm looking forward to the end cuz that's kind of sad, . But I'm looking forward to the episode today on live consulting.
Whitney Owens: So this is the fourth of a four part series that we've done on live consulting the month of January with members of the Wise Practice membership community. And my interview today is with someone that's near and dear to my heart, Brenda Stewart. Um, and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about her in a second.
Whitney Owens: Wanna let you know that we are gonna be doing some consulting today on getting unstuck in your private. . I was just telling her before we got on, I felt stuck a few weeks ago. And we all get to places of feeling stuck in our practice. And these are opportunities for growth. And so even though it feels yucky when you're in it, you feel unmotivated.
Whitney Owens: It's really an opportunity to make some changes and to see some new things. And so instead of thinking it as a negative, We're gonna make it a positive. So looking forward to talking with her today. So this is episode number 14, how to Get Unstuck in your Practice. But let me tell you a little bit about Brenda before we get into the episode.
Whitney Owens: She's a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Florida. She's also an L P C in Louisiana and a national certified counselor with experience in individual family and group therapy. She's worked in a variety of settings including residential, partial hospitalization, and outpatient clinics. She is the founder of the group Practice Wellspring Therapy Associates.
Whitney Owens: In Orlando, she's trained in evidence-based treatment such as E M D R and D B T. She's a certified compassion fatigue therapist and educator through the Green Cross Academy of Trauma traumatology throughout the therapy process. She also utilizes elements of motivational interviewing, C B T, narrative therapy and attachment based work.
Whitney Owens: Thank you so much for coming on the. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. You were also a speaker at last year's prac, uh, conference as well on compassion fatigue. So you did an excellent job,
Brenda Stewart: honor. Thank you.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, even though I read her bio, Brenda is special and lots of reasons for me, but I remember so clearly our first consult call like two or three years ago.
Whitney Owens: Yes. And I think at the time we decided to wait to do consulting. And then came back around and you were in some mastermind groups and I've just really enjoyed not only doing the consulting, but our friendship over the years. So I appreciate you and I appreciate you coming on the show. Well, thank you.
Brenda Stewart: It's been great learning from you and growing. Um, I remember that first call too, and , you were like, I think you should make the leap and start your own private practice. And I. Like, I don't think I can do it. I can't do it. I don't know. And so I'm like, let me think about it. And then about four months later, I, I took the leap.
Brenda Stewart: You were
Whitney Owens: right. Aw. Well, and, and look at you now, like you went from working at a group practice to starting your own practice, to starting your group practice. Um, and I just think it's so easy for us as entrepreneurs to go, oh, I haven't gone far enough. I haven't done it, but like, gosh, you've made so much progress in the past two.
Brenda Stewart: Yeah, it's, it's good to have that reflected to me because it can feel like, I, I want it to be a sprint. And I have to remember, I need to be ready for the marathon . Mm-hmm. . But
Whitney Owens: I like things happen fast. That's right. And I'll tell you this, those people that Sprint are usually the ones that get down the road and have a world of problems.
Whitney Owens: So it's better to grow slow, just telling you . Okay. Yeah. So why don't you talk to us a little bit about your practice, kind of your current setup, who works for you, and then we'll jump into your question.
Brenda Stewart: Okay, so I was on my own for private practice for about a year, and then in July of 2022, hired my first employee, um, a registered intern or provisionally licensed therapist, right outta grad school in July of 2022, end of June, beginning of July.
Brenda Stewart: And then she was also doing administrative assistant work while she grew her caseload. And then in December she was at a point. Some of the admin stuff wasn't being able to get done because her caseload was big, which is a good problem to have. Um, so I hired somebody on as a part-time admin assistant, so I have two employees right now.
Brenda Stewart: I am hoping to hire two more clinicians in the next
Whitney Owens: couple months. Great, great. So you've got one therapist seeing clients and uh, um, what is a full caseload for her?
Brenda Stewart: 21 to 24.
Whitney Owens: Okay. A week. And is that where she's at right now? No, she's at about
Brenda Stewart: 15. So still growing but wanna get somebody else on board.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, definitely. Which is completely cool. Yes. You have learned. Well. Um, okay. And then you have someone taking calls, you said, well,
Brenda Stewart: this might be where she's still taking the phone calls, she wants to do intake calls, and then the admin assistant I have is doing a lot of the other things. Um, and then eventually we need to shift that probably.
Brenda Stewart: I'm in the midst of the
Whitney Owens: transition. Okay. Okay. And so what is the admin assistant doing for you right now?
Brenda Stewart: Uh, she is doing social media posts, marketing kind of things, creating uh, documents, flyers, responding to emails, doing website updates, um, is gonna be writing some blogs or taking things that I've written or presentations I've done and forming them into.
Whitney Owens: So awesome. Okay. And so what is kind of the problem that you're coming into that you wanna talk about today?
Brenda Stewart: So, um, a couple areas, which I think is what is keeping me feeling a little bit stuck. So in October, November we were doing great getting. Phone calls each week. I had my website redone in December.
Brenda Stewart: That first week. We got like six intake calls that week and I was like, okay, this is awesome. We're doing this. And then the holidays hit, so there's a little bit of a lull and I expect that. And then January typically picks back up. And this year it's been a little bit slower, um, which makes me con concerned.
Brenda Stewart: And then my employee came to me and said like a third of her caseload wants to go every other week for financial reasons. We are turning away probably 60% of our intake calls because we don't take insurance. And so I've scaled back my seeing clients because I'm trying to run the business, do the marketing, all the things you know, that are involved in running the business.
Brenda Stewart: Plus, I still was seeing like 20 clients a week. Um, so I've tried to scale that back to. 15. But now with her caseload dropping literally the same day I put the job post out. I got that information. Um, and then I had a couple clients that were discharging, and so all of a sudden we dipped. And so I'm, I'm concerned about that.
Brenda Stewart: So I've been considering do I need to contract with one insurance in order to. Kind of be recession proof. I don't know. I don't wanna do that cause I know that's another headache and I like being a cash pay practice, but I also wanna be wise in decisions and meeting the needs of the community as well as, you know, keeping a business afloat.
Brenda Stewart: And the other piece is I have a very small office space. It's worked fine for two of us. Uh, my assistant is virtual, so she doesn't require office space. Right. And so I wanna hire clinicians to grow the practice, but to hire clinicians, I need more office space to get more office space. I need more revenue.
Brenda Stewart: So it's sort of the cyclical stuck point, and I'm not sure which to do first. ?
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, well you've brought up some really good questions, . Um, and that's the
Brenda Stewart: weight of all the decisions is on me. And I'm like, ah,
Whitney Owens: yeah. It is hard to be a business owner, isn't it? It's, and that, and that's why I'm always like talking about the importance of either having a coach or having a mastermind group, having a community, because you are not alone, Brenda, in your questions.
Whitney Owens: And so many people feel similar. Um, so making sure that people have that in their lives. Okay, so, so one of the things, we'll, we'll tackle a few of these. One of 'em was about should you get on panels for insurance or not. So first of all, there's no right answer. Okay. I think a lot of us, it's like this weird battle of you're an insurance practice, I'm a cash pay practice, or I'm a counselor, you're a social worker.
Whitney Owens: Like all that divide and stuff, it's just silly. If you wanna get on a panel and try it out, get on a panel and try it out, it's not the end of the world. If you don't like it, you come off of it. Right. That's true. If you like it, keep doing it. So, and I definitely always suggest that people don't come on multiple panels at once, cuz that's a lot to deal.
Whitney Owens: Now, all that said, what I heard you just say to me was, I don't want to do that.
Brenda Stewart: Right. I would like to be a cash pay practice because it gives flexibility, um, with what to do with clients. I mean, we use evidence-based therapies, but it's not, they don't have a limited sessions or I'm not having to chase, you know, unpaid claims and I don't necessarily have.
Brenda Stewart: Navigate that headache. Although I also hear it can be beneficial for growing a group fast , because it's less marketing.
Whitney Owens: Well, I think part of it is thinking through, well, what kind of practice you wanna have? Do you wanna have a really big group practice?
Brenda Stewart: Maybe. I know at this point I'm just sort of taking the next step and mm-hmm.
Brenda Stewart: feeling that out and as God directs taking the next step. .
Whitney Owens: Sure. You would need somebody, either yourself or someone else to do some more administrative work if you were to come on a panel. I think the other thing to think about is what would insurance be paying per session or do you have an idea and what are you currently making per session, and how would you have to change the number of sessions to meet the income that you need?
Brenda Stewart: And that's where I get overwhelmed. I'm not, I can do math, I mean, but I'm not an accounting person by nature. And so I heard that the, I was talking to a billing company and they said for this area, the highest reimburser is about 1 0 9. Okay? Um, and then take about 10% off of that for loss, five to 10%. So we're looking at maybe a hundred dollars a session.
Whitney Owens: What do you mean? When you say for loss, what do you
Brenda Stewart: mean by that? I like claims that go unpaid or, um, things like that. Ooh, they said plan on 90 to 95% resolution, but, um, okay. Five, 10, 10% loss. So of course I did the 10% just to be on
Whitney Owens: the safe that mm-hmm. . And then if you were to hire a biller to do your claims for you, I mean that can range on percentage.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. The
Brenda Stewart: companies I've checked on, they take 5%. Um, so it would like on, and one of 'em said their average is reimbursement would be like 6,000 a month per clinician, which would be like $300. And I'm paying in claims re solution per clinician
Whitney Owens: or for billing On top of the 5%?
Brenda Stewart: No, that would be like the 5%.
Whitney Owens: So, so if the highest, just, let's just give this an idea for a second. If your highest payer is 1 0 9 and then you have uncollected, right, which would be about $10, and then you have, um, 5% gone. So that's 90, basically $99 bond is five, give or take. You're looking at about $94 for your highest. , my guess is some of 'em are lower than maybe anywhere between 75 to $94.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. , how much do you currently make per session?
Brenda Stewart: Well, here's the other dynamic is when I was private pr, this might be the group practice owner growth curve. Um, so I'd love to hear your feedback on this. When I was in solo practice, I did not have a problem filling my caseload. Um, and I had like a six month wait.
Brenda Stewart: For the year that I was in solo practice before I developed a group. Since having a group, I can, I tend to keep my clients, I don't have a lot of turnover, um, until they're ready to discharge. Obviously, I've had a little bit more of this fall with people saying they can't afford sessions. Right now, my individual fee is one 50 a session, so if I were to take insurance, I'd be losing quite a bit.
Brenda Stewart: However, If I'm not planning to grow my caseload a lot so I can focus more on the business side of things. My thought was some, what I've been told anyway, and I don't know cause I've been getting conflicting information. Um, I've talked to like three different billing companies, so the information I'm relaying is from billing companies.
Brenda Stewart: They said some insurance companies allow a registered intern to. Provide service, I just have to sign off on the note and maybe sit in on a session here or there. So if that's the case, um, my employee's client fee right now is 100 in June. That will go up to like 1 25. But so for her it would be pretty, not too much different and I could fill her up quicker.
Brenda Stewart: But then I got conflicting information saying companies, insurance companies don't like that. And so that's not the way to go. So
Whitney Owens: yeah, I, I agree that you're gonna get conflicting information. I can tell you with certainty that I have worked with people in the state of Florida who have taken insurance and their I interns have been on panels for some companies, not all the companies, but even that being said, so if your therapists were.
Whitney Owens: Let's say your current person were to, let's say the perfect situation occurred and they were to get on a panel and they were to get paid, you know, $90 a session, that would still be less than they're making now, and you would have to consider decreasing their overall pay because you're bringing in less money per session.
Whitney Owens: Correct? Right. And so you'd wanna talk to them about that, if that's something that they were open to or.
Whitney Owens: and some people get on insurance panels for a short time and then come off of 'em, but it is a lot to credential people, so you'd have to go through that whole process. And it does take sometimes, sometimes it can be pretty quick, six, eight weeks. Sometimes it can be three or four months. So when you hire somebody, you can't just give 'em clients immediately.
Whitney Owens: If you're an insurance based practice, and as you know, marketing for an insurance based practice as to marketing for a cash pay practice, two totally different.
Brenda Stewart: Well then I was looking at is it possible to say, okay, 10% of our clients can be insurance based and the rest not. But then that can get messy because if someone calls and has that particular insurance, then I have to accept it.
Brenda Stewart: Or else it'ss fraud. Hmm. . There's just, that's right. So many things that I'm like, ah, let me just stay cafe. But then how do I. So grow this.
Whitney Owens: Brenda, you've said several times you wanna stay cash pay. I want you to follow your gut, right? And the the truth is, okay, maybe with a cash pay practice, you're not gonna get as big, but that means you work less true.
Whitney Owens: And it's hard to start a group practice. You are six months.
Brenda Stewart: Okay, so this is normal . I mean,
Whitney Owens: I, I do think that you're in a different situation than I'm seeing across the board right now in private practice with other practice owners I'm talking to. But I definitely think normal in the sense of like, it takes time to build a group practice.
Whitney Owens: Yes. Now there are some people out there that hire a bunch of people fast, but like when I think back on mine, I hired my first two people in the first six. I lost both of them within 10 months, , and then I hired somebody, you know, and so it just, everyone's got a different road they're traveling on. So my suggestion to you would be do everything you can to be a cash pay practice.
Whitney Owens: If you get to the point where you can't and you have exhausted your resources, then consider an alternative.
Brenda Stewart: Now, how would I know I got to that?
Whitney Owens: What, what does it mean? What do you need? It, I think it's thinking about what kind of income do you need to make? Would you rather get, would you like your take home money?
Whitney Owens: You're gonna make the most if you see clients? Let's just be honest. Right. And so would you rather do the hassle and headache of getting on insurance panels or would you rather see two to three more clients a week, two to three more clients, . Exactly. That's, and, and that's temporary as you. There are lots of things that we can do to grow.
Whitney Owens: So the first things I would tell you to do is go back and look at your numbers for your calls. 60%. I'm so glad you knew that, by the way. Good job watching those calls if you're losing
Brenda Stewart: Mastermind that help me know how to track that. That's right.
Whitney Owens: Um, so you, you said you're losing 60% of your calls because of insurance.
Whitney Owens: Are you losing 60% across the board or just due to I. Uh, no.
Brenda Stewart: For those that are wanting insurance, just sort of, we get so many calls and I think part of it is Orlando is the cost of living is very high, but the pay for people is low. Mm-hmm. . So it doesn't balance out. And I know I'm not like, there's other cities that are similar, but, um, we get so many calls of.
Brenda Stewart: Oh, I need insurance. Oh, okay. That's okay. I need insurance. I needed to use my insurance.
Whitney Owens: And it's like, okay, here's, here's what I wanna encourage you to do. I think that 60% is very high, just to be honest with you. Um, most cash pay practices convert at least 30 to 50% of their calls. But those, so that means you're, that means there's 40% of your calls unaccounted for, are you converting all 40% or just some of.
Whitney Owens: I haven't looked at those numbers, so I would, I would look at those cuz that's where this all starts. I'm
Brenda Stewart: wondering if I need to do intake again for a while. Okay.
Whitney Owens: So that's something you could look at. So the training of the person that's taking the calls, making sure you're explaining things well. Um, and so I would look at how are you talking about insurance on the phone?
Whitney Owens: How are you talking about cash pay on the phone if a client immediately. Hey, do you take Aetna or do you take Blue Cross? What we say is, I'm so glad you called. I really can't know the best therapist for you unless you tell me a little bit about what's going on, and then we can talk about finances at the end.
Whitney Owens: If this is a good situation for you, then they start talking to us, right? And we build that therapeutic relat. If we get to the end, at least we know what's going on and we can provide an appropriate referral that we know in town that takes Blue Cross, right? Instead of just willy-nilly it. But the truth is people don't understand how insurance works.
Whitney Owens: Clients are thinking, oh, it's like when I go to the doctor for my blood work or when I go to the doctor for this. Mental health is so different. They don't know about diagnostic codes being sent to the insurance. They don't know what you were just saying about evidence-based treatment. We wanna do the number of sessions we think is appropriate.
Whitney Owens: We don't wanna spend our time at energy filing claims instead of helping clients. And so that's how we explain it to clients. We let 'em know that, hey, if you're coming in as ache for your child, This goes on their, on their record with the insurance company. Do you want that on there? If they were to go into the military, if they were to go into politics, like, yeah, they're not supposed to get this information, but hey, I know that doctors have to fill out forms when they become doctors to tell people if they've had therapy or not.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. . Right. By being a cash pay practice, we can keep your information as confidential as. . Right. So that's one thing's, just the way we talk about insurance. Okay. The other pieces would be super bills, which I think you know a good bit about that. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Okay. We can offer for them to send the super bills and get reimbursement.
Whitney Owens: Um, I also will ask clients, what is your copay? Have you checked to find out if you even have mental health benefits or
Brenda Stewart: they're deductible? A lot of high deductible
Whitney Owens: plans. Yes. A lot of people don't have that now. It used to be years ago, we would be able to call on their, Even though we were not providers within the network, now they won't let us do that anymore.
Whitney Owens: But I would check benefits for clients and call 'em back and let 'em know. But I would say to clients, Hey, check your benefits and see if it's even an option. Okay. Um, or what is your copay? Like if they call, call back and go, oh, my copay is $80. $80, you might as well see my therapist for a hundred. You don't even have to deal with the headache of your insurance company knowing anything.
Whitney Owens: Right, right. That's good. Now, you know, I'm gonna tell you to leave your rates what they are, because that's what I should tell you. But if I was in your situation, I would lower my rates to get clients in because I would rather do that than go on insurance panels, because that's just my model. It's okay if you wanna go on insurance panels, but I, I prefer not dealing with all that.
Whitney Owens: And so I would rather take a client at $80 than get on panels and have to do billing and really just get $80 in the. Unless you wanna have a huge group practice, that's a totally different story. I think it's all your model and who you're serving. Okay. But it sounds like you know what you wanna do, cuz you kind of started out with that.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. .
Brenda Stewart: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I think for right now I would like to stay cash pay. And that makes sense. Just to reduce our fees. What I wanna be careful of, and I, I spoke to my employee about this. You know, if we were to contract with one or two insurance companies, the pay would be less, which means in order to get an income that she might need or desire, you have to see more clients, you have to work harder.
Brenda Stewart: And so I'm trying to navigate that carefully because I want to help the clinicians that work for me to be able to sustain. Being a therapist long term. Yes. I don't want them. So that's something I, you know, discussed in our team meetings, things like that on how to care well for your soul, how to be able to stay in this long term and not burn out or experience that compassion fatigue.
Brenda Stewart: And I feel like if they're having to now see 30, 35 clients a week to make what they could be making with 20 clients, that's a big difference. A hundred. .
Whitney Owens: Yeah, so I would, I would go back and look at your intake calls and see what's happening. You can even do some prank calls, have people call your person that's answering.
Whitney Owens: Okay. And get feedback on how they're talking about insurance. Okay. I, if I had to guess, it's about, it goes back to how we talked about insurance on the intake call. I really liked how you did
Brenda Stewart: it at the beginning. You don't just automatically say, no, I'm sorry, we don't take Aetna, but we can offer you. A receipt that you can submit for out network reimbursement, but rather you say, you know, before we talk about charges, let me get a feel for what you're needing.
Brenda Stewart: What are you hoping for? Therapy. Mm-hmm. a little bit more about you. Um, yeah,
Whitney Owens: actually last week I needed a new doctor. Long story. And so I called this one place and immediately, what's your insurance? I need the number, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, um, can you turn off? Tell me more about the doctor, what the treatment's like?
Whitney Owens: Or if I'm sick, can they see me? You know? And then I called another place that's a cash pay doctor and they were so nice. Spent lots of time talking to me. Of course they're full, so I can't get in , of course. But the truth, it's, it's just kind of like, Hey, I'm willing to pay a little extra to get a service that actually answers my call, listens to me on the phone, cares about me.
Whitney Owens: What does that say about you as a therapist when you, and just run right into the insurance conversation? I think people are so used to that they don't know how to have a call without it.
Brenda Stewart: Yeah, I love that. And then in that conversation, they get a feel for who you. as a therapist and caring about them as a person versus just, you know, filling
Whitney Owens: a space.
Whitney Owens: Definitely. Well, let's spend a few minutes talking about office space, cuz that was what you just said. Okay, that'd great. I'm gonna tell you, we, I, when I said I felt stuck, I know you were kind of probably curious what I was talking about. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ,
Brenda Stewart: I was like, Whitney Owens feels stuck then it's okay.
Brenda Stewart: That I feel stuck. .
Whitney Owens: Yes. So, um, I was feeling really stuck because I'm kind of in a similar boat in the sense of my admin or totally overwhelmed, but I can't bring on more admin. So I'll bring on more staff to be able to pay for more admin. . And so, um, I was feeling very overwhelmed. We were interviewing for months and then finally, finally we just trained three people actually on Friday.
Whitney Owens: Oh wow. That's awesome. Um, yeah, two are interns and so it worked out cuz the interns are gonna be able to help take calls. Right. Nice. For like 15, 20 hours a week. It's gonna relieve my admin's time. So it's a temporary solution to hiring another admin. Yes. So that worked out. And then we hired, um, a ther, an actual therapist.
Whitney Owens: Who's gonna be seeing clients too, which was he, he's really meeting a need in the practice. So anyway, all that to say is like, it boiled down to hiring for me. And so I, I do think with the group practice, you're gonna be able to, the more you grow, the more you market, right? So the more people you have, the more people who know those people, the more services you're offering, you're gonna be able to help more.
Whitney Owens: Does that make sense? Okay. Yes. The more you grow, the more you grow. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. So I definitely think hiring is your next step, um, and trying to get that licensed person if possible, especially cuz of the Florida laws. So for,
Brenda Stewart: I have two other registered interims who have been contacting me.
Brenda Stewart: Do you have any openings yet? Do you have any openings yet? And their, based on their resume and what I know of them, I would love to hire them, but I cannot be on site. More than I already am. Now. If I had bigger office space or more office space where they could see clients when I'm already here, that would be one thing, but I'm not there.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. So that's what I was gonna ask. What's going on with your current space in your building? Are there other offices?
Brenda Stewart: No, our building is completely full. Um, the person, cuz I sublease from someone. Who has an office suite. And so I have like one office and then a virtual office, which is literally like a walk-in closet size, but it works fine.
Brenda Stewart: I'm sitting in it now for a virtual office. And um, so that works for the two of us. And then I was going to bring somebody else on for the times when we're not here. Like nobody's here on Friday or Saturday. Um, the other therapist isn't in on Tuesdays, so we could also use that space and I could pay her more, but she said she is not okay with more people coming in.
Brenda Stewart: So I checked, there's another therapy practice in the building who I asked them, I said, you know, would you have space that you're not using? Cuz I know them. She used to be my supervisor when I was before I was licensed in Florida. And she said she thought that would be great. She just wanted to check with her liability insurance, and I said, that's fine.
Brenda Stewart: I have my liability insurance too. So I don't know if that would be an issue, but I haven't heard back from her, so I need to follow up there. So that could be one option. The other option is I've been looking at, um, different spaces for lease and it's a lot. . And so I checked with even one of, I was like, okay, whether I move the whole practice or if temporarily I just need a separate, a second location until I can move the whole practice.
Brenda Stewart: But I looked at some of those easy offices or Regis office spaces for one a hundred square foot interior basement level office. It's a thousand dollars a. I was like, okay, that doesn't really make any sense. Mm-hmm. , but then I'm outside of that. I'm going to suites that is more than what I need, so then I'm paying for more than what I can really feasibly do until we get more clients.
Brenda Stewart: Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Mm. So your current person that you're subleasing from, she said you can use Friday and Saturday.
Brenda Stewart: She said she wasn't comfortable with me hiring any more people to use this current
Whitney Owens: space. Hmm.
Brenda Stewart: So I thought, do I need to go fully virtual for a time? But around here, people aren't really
Whitney Owens: wanting that.
Whitney Owens: No. It sounds like your decision's been made for you. I mean, she's telling you she's not okay with you hiring more people to use the space, even though you're subletting it and you can't use it the way you want, that doesn't really make a lot of.
Brenda Stewart: I can circle back around, um, and ask again if it was only on days when she wasn't here.
Brenda Stewart: Right. If your subletting office is fairly small and we have a small waiting room and she sees kids, so there's parents in the waiting room if my employee and me are here, and then there's massage therapist in here too, it can feel like a lot. Um, so I think she was thinking if we had one more person, it's too much.
Brenda Stewart: Uh, but maybe if I outline it differently.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Or what if they don't wait in the lobby? That's true. You know, is there's an, it's a big building, right? With multiple office suites. So what if you'd like met them at the front door or walked them in?
Brenda Stewart: It used to be a doctor's office, so if you can picture, there's like a entryway and then literally it's a square.
Brenda Stewart: Mm-hmm. where there was mm-hmm. office. And so they've rented out like single offices throughout the square, but this. One corner of the square is a suite. Hmm. That's what you're saying. They can sit on the other side. There's another little waiting room and I can just go through the back door to bring 'em in.
Brenda Stewart: Mm-hmm. . So there's some options. Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Yeah, I would, I would definitely be thinking about more space. I would have another conversation with her. I also think you could consider other places, like if you knew a church that'd be willing to let you use space, um, how would
Brenda Stewart: you go about that conversation?
Brenda Stewart: Like, would you just call the office of the
Whitney Owens: church or We'll start with the churches that, you know, if you go attend a church yourself or if you one of your employees attends a church and go that route
Brenda Stewart: first. An employee, my church is a huge church and they have their own counseling center, so I don't mm-hmm.
Brenda Stewart: I dunno. Pastor knows I exist. .
Whitney Owens: Yeah. That might not be the best situation, but maybe with my employee goes to a church,
Brenda Stewart: I could check with her. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Okay. Yeah. And then be open to other possibilities, other people you've met that have offices. Um, or maybe if you have a certain population you work a lot with.
Whitney Owens: Like some therapists will rent out a pediatric office and see clients there. Okay. Um, so just be flexible with your idea of what office space has to look like until you. But yeah, I would first start with talking to your person more about if you're renting that space, you should be able to use it however you see fit cuz you're renting it.
Whitney Owens: Okay.
Brenda Stewart: That's what I think. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. , I wonder, have you heard of people renting, like say there's a pediatrician's office contacting the office manager and saying, you know, we have a therapist who specializes with children. Uh, do you have space in your office that. , you know, have, you know, rent to us or something to see kids.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, I think that'd be fine. I would try to find offices that are private pay or a concierge service. Mm-hmm. , they're out there more and more. Actually,
Brenda Stewart: there is a chiropractor that I am aware of. It's in a different part of town though. How soon is it okay to do a second location before having a work culture?
Whitney Owens: In your situation, I would just do it. Okay. , because you need to grow. Yeah.
Brenda Stewart: See I always, I overanalyze and then I get stuck.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. You can always bring people back together later when you grow enough to get more space. Okay, so I might
Brenda Stewart: reach out to him then.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you feel like this has generated some ideas on getting unstuck?
Whitney Owens: Yes.
Brenda Stewart: Thank you very much. I, it makes me feel like I can breathe again. . Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. I mean, you know me, but I'm tend to want things to be perfect , right? And I wanna do it perfectly the first time in the right way. And then when I see all of the different factors and different things, I get overwhelmed and I'm like, I don't know what's the best, what's good, the perfect, and I get stuck.
Brenda Stewart: So talking this out and hearing the ideas and ways to navigate it is super.
Whitney Owens: Great. Awesome. Well, before we close out, I wanted you to share a little bit about the Wise Practice membership community and how has it been helpful for you in your practice?
Brenda Stewart: Yes, so I am so glad I'm a part of it. Um, I love that you have each Wednesday, um, either speaker come in or different topic or.
Brenda Stewart: The open questions to come in. While I haven't been able to go to a ton of them yet, I, the ones I have been going to have been amazing, uh, I love being part of within the Wise practice community, being part of a smaller group where we meet, uh, once or twice a month and are able to hash some things out together of people who are in a similar place in practice who have the same goals, who are in the same growth curve, um, get different perspective.
Brenda Stewart: Share resources, share thoughts. Um, and then I love how you upload in the, I don't know what it's called in the circle community. I can't remember. Is it the files or the shared document section? Yes.
Whitney Owens: Oh yes. Uhhuh documents that you can use in your practice
Brenda Stewart: Yes. Is so helpful. And I go to those often and keep looking to see if there's new things, but I just love being a part of it.
Brenda Stewart: It makes being a group practice owner less lonely, um, less isolating and having other faith-based. Um, practice clinicians and learning from everybody is just invaluable, so. Mm-hmm. . Well, thank you. I would recommend it and I'm so appreciative.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, thank you so much and I'm so glad that you're a part of the community.
Whitney Owens: You are, what makes it special, . Um, so for those of you listening, if you are interested in joining Wise practice, the doors to wise practice are gonna be opening February 1st through the third. So this will be for our second cohort. After the third, the doors will close, so make sure that you get in on the action.
Whitney Owens: If you are interested, go to whitney owens.com/member or membership is actually what it's membership. Um, and you can click there and join. If it's before February 1st and you are interested, just go there and click um, the button to join the email list. There. You'll get first access and if you're listening to this episode after the doors have closed, it's.
Whitney Owens: Head on in there, join the email list so that when the next cohort starts, you will be able to know about it. So Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me on the Wise Practice Podcast. Yes,
Brenda Stewart: thanks for having me, Whitney.
Audio Production and Show Notes Provided by James Marland
