WP 25 | Can Christian Counselors be Wealthy with David Frank
In this episode of the Wise Practice Podcast, host Whitney Owens interviewed David Frank, a financial planner who specializes in working with therapists. During the discussion, they covered various topics related to wealth, financial planning, and the intersection of faith-based counseling and wealth. Frank shared his expertise on managing profit and loss statements, personal budgeting, student loan debt, and retirement investing.
A little Background on Frank
Although Frank enjoys reading about tax code and spreadsheets, he also has a deep understanding of philosophy, including the teachings of Pema Chodron, a Buddhist monk and first ordained member of a certain tradition in North America. Frank emphasized the importance of a faith-based mindset when dealing with money, as money is a charged and emotional topic in society. He urged listeners to approach their financial resources with awareness and intentionality and to cultivate a money practice to align spending and earning with how one wants to live their life.
Is it ok for a therapist to be wealthy?
The conversation explored the concept of wealth and its negative connotations. Frank argued that wealth should be perceived positively as it enables individuals to show up and do good things in their personal and professional lives. However, people are not trained to think about money and often avoid the topic due to conflicts and taboos surrounding it. Frank encouraged people to be honest about their emotions and to clarify their financial goals to align with their desired lifestyle.
The importance of therapists looking at their own money despite advising clients to do the same was also discussed. The speakers recommended setting aside time for an ongoing and consistent money practice, which involves looking at the finances of the private practice and understanding them. They also emphasized the importance of profit and wealth in reinvesting to grow the business and help more people.
The Challange for a Therapist as a Small Business Owner
The conversation continued with a discussion on the challenges of being a small business owner and the importance of mindset. The speakers suggested setting aside at least 30 minutes every week to understand and expose oneself to the finances of the private practice. They also highlighted the importance of getting comfortable with difficult emotions such as anxiety and overwhelm when engaging with finances. The speakers suggested focusing on various aspects of the business such as bookkeeping, budgeting, and income generation.
The importance of being clear about how time is being spent when earning money and the importance of setting rates appropriately to avoid doing oneself a disservice were also discussed. The speakers provided tips for growing wealth, such as being smart about using different retirement and investment accounts available to business owners and starting to save for retirement early, even if it's just a small amount.
Therapists need to develop healthy financial habits
The show emphasized the need to start small when developing healthy financial habits, such as contributing small amounts to an emergency savings fund and retirement account. They also cautioned against stashing all extra cash into a retirement account and emphasized the importance of balancing saving for retirement with having accessible funds for unexpected expenses.
Throughout the conversation, the importance of taking action and not letting money intimidate oneself was emphasized. The speakers encouraged listeners to experiment with managing their finances and to reach out for support when needed. They also shared information about Turning Point, a financial planning firm designed exclusively for licensed mental health care professionals, which provides free resources on financial planning.
In summary, the conversation covered various aspects of wealth and financial planning, with an emphasis on cultivating a money practice and approaching finances with awareness and intentionality. The importance of mindset, setting rates appropriately, and balancing retirement savings with accessible funds for unexpected expenses were also discussed. The speakers encouraged listeners to start small and experiment with managing their finances, as well as to seek support when needed. They also shared information about Turning Point, a financial planning firm designed for licensed mental health care professionals.
Links and resources
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WP 25 | Can Christian Counselors be Wealthy with David Frank
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Whitney Owens: Welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. Looking forward today to talking to my friend David Frank, and like I told him before the interview started, I really just like interviewing people cuz I have my own questions and wanna learn how to grow. And today it's a particularly important topic cuz we're gonna talk about wealth.
What is wealth? How do we grow our wealth? Then honestly, is it okay to be wealthy and also call yourself a faith-based counselor? So let me tell you a little bit about David and then we'll get into the episode. So he is a financial planner for therapists through the firm. He founded Turning Point Financial Life Planning.
He helps therapists navigate every element of their financial lives from understanding their practice p and l, and building a personal budget to manage student loan debt and investing for retirement and all the things in. But don't let his law for the tax code and spreadsheets scare you off. You're just as likely to find him with his nose buried in one of the, I should have looked at this in advance.
Pma. Help
David Frank: me out. David. Uh, like I say, I'm not sure, but PMA children.
Whitney Owens: Oh, okay. You might be in one of those books or reading up on it. Okay. You're gonna have to just start out with telling me
David Frank: more about that. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, that's like, I, I, that one always throws people and it throws me too. It's like Pema Cho.
How do you, how do you pronounce that woman's name? She is, uh, a Buddhist monk. Uh, I think she is the first. Buddhist monk in a certain tradition, um, to be, um, ordained, I guess is the right word in from North America. So she's, she's from the US somewhere. She lives in Canada now, leads a monastery up in Canada and she has a series of books.
Um, and it's, it, it, it's, it uses sort of like the, like tools of the out of the Buddhist tradition to help people. Just deal with the, the difficulties of life and how to be present in the face of uncertainty, discomfort, um, how we sit with difficult or hard to hold emotions and not run away from them, and how we show up in the world and help ourselves and help others.
Whitney Owens: I love that. So, so we're really saying that you're a financial guy and you're a deep, philosophical understanding kind of guy.
David Frank: Well, your words. Yeah. I, I mean I do like that and I think the two are actually very related. Um, or they can be. Mm-hmm. Um, you can, I think, I think the world of money. Is, I think when you engage with the world of money, you are well served to bring, um, a faith-based or faith informed mindset to it.
Um hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Oh, well, let's, let's go there for just a minute and then we'll talk more about wealth. Well, what do you mean about kind of a faith-based mindset with our money? God,
David Frank: a a lot of things I, I think, um, I think first and foremost, what I mean by that is that we don't put whatever word we use to refer to our financial resources, whether it's it's money or wealth or whatever.
Uh, those are all very charged terms. Like most people have pretty strong emotional reactions to them based on their upbringing, family of origin, et cetera. And so I. And especially just in, in our society, like in western society, in in US society especially, there's just this frankly unhealthy obsession and focus on external things, status, symbols, and, and money is part of that, is one of them.
And so I think money is, money is a tool like so many other things in. Like so many other tools in life, it can be used and it can be abused. And so when I say come to Money with Faith and Mind, it's more so like put first things first. So like be clear about like what kind of life is important to you? Um, how do you wanna show up on this planet?
How do you wanna show up as a professional? How do you wanna show up as a member of a faith community? How do you wanna show up as a member of a family? Um, and then figure out. You know, how can money support you doing and doing the things you wanna be doing and showing up in life the way you wanna show up?
And then let's figure out how much money or how much wealth you need to do those things. And then money becomes a, a tool that serves us rather than us serving, you know, money and just chasing after money without a clear understanding of why or what enough is.
Whitney Owens: Mm. Thank you. That was, that was super helpful.
And I'm gonna gather that most people probably don't maybe identify what they need or think through how they're spending their money, right? Yeah.
David Frank: I mean, we just, we don't, we're not trained to think about it. Like, you know, virtually no one gets formal education around this stuff. It's pretty taboo to talk about, um, even within families.
Um, There's often so much conflict, so conflict around money. So if you do dare to bring it up, sometimes you get burned, something bad happens and so therefore it's just like, ah, I'm just gonna avoid all that. Kind of pretend it's not there. It's sort of the elephant in the room. And so like, that's what I really encourage people to do.
It's just like, nah, like, so, like much like therapists, like I wanna be like, let's, we need to talk about these things. They're so important, so let's get clear about them. Let's talk about them. Let's. Just be honest with ourselves and with one another about like the emotions attached to them, like what we want.
Um, and like the more we cultivate a money, I talk a lot about cultivating a money practice, and especially as a, as a practice owner, as a small business or business owner. Ha setting aside time to engage with your money life and like, really think about like, what's happening here, what's working well, what could use a little bit of improvement perhaps?
Um, but more than anything, just being clear about like what is happening and is it, am I spending money? Am I earning money? Um, are those things aligned with how I want to be living my life? Yeah.
Whitney Owens: Well, as you're kind of sharing this, I'm thinking, gosh, this is something we talk to clients about all the time, right?
We're always talking. I mean, just this week I had a client that came in and we were talking about money and budgeting and all these things, and so as therapists were always saying, Hey, make money for therapy. Think about where you're spending it. Yet at the same time, therapists don't wanna look at their own money.
They don't wanna look at their books, they don't wanna think about it, whatever the reason is. All the money mindset issues that you're talking about. And so I think that's just a good example of, hey, on this podcast right now we're gonna talk about it cuz I know you therapists haven't been wanting to.
Um, so let's talk about wealth because I think, yeah, we were talking about that wealth is, is this word that has so many emotions and thoughts to it. So can you kind of identify what do we mean when we talk about wealth?
David Frank: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question and a, as we were kind of speaking with one another before we hit the record button, uh, I don't, like, I have this reaction to the word wealth too, and it's not a positive one.
Um, it's just kind of like, it feels a little. Like, Ugh. Like kind of gross, right? Like, oh, like I don't want to be one of those people. So like to me, if I'm not being clear and intentional about it, when I hear the word wealth and like a big, I mean I'm a financial planner, that's kind of how I would identify myself, but there's this whole like wealth management or wealth, Yeah, wealth management industry.
A lot of people call themselves wealth managers and I'm just kinda like, oh, yuck. I don't want to, I don't wanna be that right. Like that's like, I'm, I'm not for, you know, the, the, the top 1% of the 1% or whatever. Um, so I think that's the negative conception of wealth. Is it just like, oh, greedy rich people that are exploiting others and not being good stewards of, of anything, not looking out for, um, the less fortunate.
So that's what I think my negative reaction to wealth is. But when I really sit down and think about like, well, if my mission is to help folks build an optimal level of wealth and protect that wealth, like, well, what am I really talking about? What I'm really talking about is helping folks organize and grow their financial resources.
Such that they can go out into the world and do what it is they wanna do. So that means working the way you wanna work, being, uh, maybe being an employer in the way you want to be an employer, being a family member, being a member of a faith community, and sort of like giving yourself ample financial abundance building and protecting ample financial abundance.
So you can show up kind of as your best. In a professional capacity and then not have to work 50, 60, 70 hours a work a week, rather just to have enough but to work however many hours, feel sustainable and good for you, such that you have enough time, energy, space to go out outside of your professional realm, be a family member, be a member of faith community, uh, do good works for the community and all those things.
So, That's what wealth really enables. Intentional building of wealth enables you to show up and, and, and do good things.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. I I love all this. You can see me smiling and nodding because I, I totally agree. It's, um, you know, we were talking about Casey Compton too before we got on, and something she said at the last conference I was at, you were there too.
One of the things she said is, if your business isn't profitable, your business isn't gonna. And so when I think of profit, I think of wealth, right? And, and if we don't have wealth, we can't reinvest it to grow so that we can help more people.
David Frank: Right, exactly. And you, you know, like, so this is like an overused metaphor, but stick with me for a minute.
It's just like, it's like putting your own oxygen mask on first. Like, right. How many, how many times have we heard that, right? Like if you, if you've flown it all frequently, you hear it, you like, you don't even like tune it in. But that's really what getting intentional, blah blah, about your earning spending, just your wealth, your money, it is putting your own oxygen mask on first.
But like, if you really think about that, Um, if you like, can visualize for a second, you're on an airplane, right? Like a loved one or like your child or someone who just can't put their own oxygen mask on is sitting next to you and all of a sudden the plane like hits massive turbulence. It drops like people are startled.
The oxygen's masks fall out, like in that panicked moment. Can you imagine how difficult it would actually be to put your mask on first before you put on the mask for your loved one next to you? Like you could like, like that would be like a herculean effort for me. But that's what you need to do, because if you don't do that, you're not gonna be conscious to help the person next to you.
Mm-hmm. So dealing with your money. It's just like that, in my opinion. It feels uncomfortable. It feels intuitively kind of like the, ugh, this is selfish, this is greedy, this is the wrong thing to be doing. And for sure make space and honor those emotions and just be like, oh, that's curious. Like I wanna know more about my reaction there.
And then there's the and right? Like it feels a little gross. And I know if I get intentional about money, I can do more good in the world.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yes. I, I can, I'm thinking about lots of things as you're sharing and even my own life, and I think you know this about me. I have a special needs daughter.
Mm-hmm. She's sick. Yeah. She's autistic. And so as I'm getting older and I'm seeing that what her progression is really becoming it, I am wondering, is she gonna be able to live on her own one day? And she may never be able to have that. So as we're talking about wealthy, she want that mask. Like I've gotta be able to mask her up every single.
Right. I can't put in 10 hour days working. How would I ever be able to care for my family? Right? And so if I don't create wealth, have something for her, when I can't work anymore, I'm gonna be putting her at a huge loss. And so our wealth is about caring for those that are
David Frank: around us. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. So why don't we talk about. So we're talking about wealth, and it sounds like we're saying yes, wealth is good and for so many reasons. And so how do we build wealth as a practice owner?
David Frank: Yeah, so there's obviously a, there's a lot of, there's a, there's a lot to this. Um, but I think first and foremost, there's sort of like, when I think about this, like the, the how, but like there, there's two big pieces to the how there's sort of the knowledge, like the kind of like the technical capabilities.
What do I need to focus on? What. Tools do I need to use? What kind of accounts might I open? What types of apps or software programs can I use to manage my bookkeeping, to manage my personal spending? All those things. All important. And then there's also like, just like the mindset piece of just like of, of, of, and we've already been kind of talking about mindset of like getting clear about why wealth might be good, getting clear about, um, what your role is when it comes to money.
And I think like the tools and the knowledge are super important. Really, what's most important, I think, is, is the mindset. Um, and mindset. There's a lot to mindset, but like the first thing I always talk about is that when you go into private practice, y yes, you are a private practice owner and you are a, a business owner.
Um, and so being a business owner that comes with a different set of challenges. It's not that you're just seeing your patients or seeing your clients and doing great work for them. Yes, you are doing those. And you have to tend to the business. The business will take care of you financially if you take care of it as well.
So there's a, there's a lot of, uh, just, there's a lot of tasks that then come on your plate. As a small business owner, one of them, many of them relate to money. So I think the most important thing, the most important thing to practice or think about when it, the first step to building wealth as a practice owner is to.
Make space for an ongoing and consistent money practice. And that's just sort of a general practice. Like I encourage everyone to set aside at least 30, maybe 60 minutes every week, put it on your calendar and just like have it blocked off as like, this is a time when I'm gonna look at the finances of what's going on in my private practice and just understand and expose myself to them.
And in the beginning you might just. Kinda shocked and overwhelmed and kind of like paralyzed, but that's okay. It's go to like a meditative practice of just like showing up and being like, okay. In the very beginning, what you might be noticing is just like your internal reactions of anxiety and panic and discomfort and overwhelm.
Totally cool. It's only by showing up in that space and beginning to get comfortable with those more difficult to hold emotions that we sort of begin to acclimate to it. Mm-hmm. And then once we get more comfortable with the emotions or the emotions subside a little bit, then we can start to move into like really thinking more critically and just noticing like, what's going on here?
Like what's most important for me? Like what and what's going well? Like, do I have a bookkeeping practice? Do I have a sense of. What the budget for this practice looks like. Do I have a, a general idea of, of what I need to be doing in terms of how many sessions need to be held in the business this year and how much income that will generate, um, for me.
Um, so there's, there's an endless things to focus on in those. Periods of, of developing a money practice. But I think it is just absolutely fundamental that we, all of us, as business owners set aside time and space to, to do that work and to hold that, that, that exploration really.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Uh, all such great points and totally agree with that.
I, I actually look at my money, I think twice a month, and I sit mm-hmm. And I look at the expenses and I think about it. I see the payroll, and I'll just be honest. Oh, I seriously almost freak out. Every time payroll gets run, I'm always like, holy moly. But that's why I save and put the money aside, you know?
And I can know that it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be secure. And actually, if payroll's up, that means we made a lot of money, you know? Right. So I gotta like, remember that. But my anxieties can come out when I start seeing those numbers. And then over time I'm like, wait, it's okay. It's been okay every time I can keep going.
David Frank: Yeah. And, and the other thing too is like, as you consistently engage with the numbers, you begin to make connections and insights and like, you'll notice you're like, wait a minute, like what you just said? Oh, payroll is high. Oh, that seems bad. Oh, but. That actually means that we held a lot of sessions, um, that there's a lot of money coming in the door.
And oh, by the way, that means you're helping a lot of people. So, um, you're just like, you, you learn more the more you engage with it.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, that's right. And it's unfortunate when people don't, because a lot of times you'll miss things. Right? Like you might have a money leak that you didn't even notice was there.
Yes. And that's just so unfortunate cuz that money could have been spent doing something more valuable for the.
David Frank: Absolutely. Yeah. And it like, I wish there were like a more simple hack or more universal like advice, but this stuff, it's just money is, it touches basically everything. Everything in business, certainly.
Uh, it touches basically everything in our life. It has an influence that it's influenced. The way it shows up might be a little bit hidden, um, like. How is being able to spend time with my daughter related to money? It's like, well, okay, yeah, you're not earning money. Like so in theory, you could be spending that time generating money.
Well, you don't want to be doing that, right? Like, we wanna have time outside of the office, so we need to be clear about what, how we're spending, the time we are spending, when we are earning money. Um, yeah. Anyway.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, I think it's so important. I had talked to, actually, it sounds like a big name drop, but I don't mean it like the Mike Mcz.
That is a name drop. It's a name drop. He's great. Okay. But anyway, I did talk to him one time and he said some, you know, people say things that just like hits you, right? So we were talking about rates and he said, when you set your rate too low in your practice, You are doing yourself a disservice because you're thinking about the need for money while you're seeing clients, and it just hit me like a ton of bricks because at that time I was, I think, already a group practice owner, but it was reminding me of those days when I was a solo practice owner.
I'd be meeting with a client, but I would know I had an email from a new client or I would see a call come through right when a new client got here, but it was a new client. Right. And so I'd feel this angst like, oh gosh, I gotta hurry and respond to that because I need more clients in my practice cuz I gotta make more money cuz I gotta make rent.
Right? Yeah, yeah. But if my rates were higher, I wouldn't be so concerned about grabbing all those clients. Um, yeah.
And so do you have any other tips for growing your wealth?
David Frank: Yeah, I think one of the, one of the, the, the key things is to be, think through and really be smart about how you're using the different accounts available to you when you're a a practice owner. When you're a business owner, you have so many different retirement accounts and different types of investment accounts available at your disposal, and I'm a huge fan of starting to save her retirement early, and it doesn't need to be overly complicated.
I advocate like everyone just gets started. And even if you get started super small, that's totally fine. If you are a private practice, uh, private practice owner, you're working in private practice, you don't have a retirement plan set up, totally okay. Just start today. And even if it's just like $1 every other week, you can start contributing.
I like people to build practices, to build the muscle of taking the action so you don't have to wait until things are quote unquote perfect. So people are like, oh, if I can only save like five, $10. Every week or every other week, it's not even worth getting started. I think it absolutely is worth getting started.
Cause you figure all those small things out. It's like, how do I open, um, an individual retirement account? Oh, okay. I go to Vanguard, I fill this thing out. Great. You figure that out. How do I automate like a, a weekly or monthly transfer for my checking account into that retirement, um, account? Okay. Like I figured, I figured that out.
So they. As you grow your income over time and you're in a position to bake, to make bigger contributions towards your retirement, towards your future, then like the, the habit is already there. You figured out all the details and it's just going in and like upping that little amount of money, but never underestimate the power of like small.
Actions like that is the best way to develop habits, to develop healthy financial behaviors is to start super small. And like when you start small, like the, the stakes feel so low. Like, like if I open a retirement account and I quote unquote screw something up, and I've contributed $12 over the last couple months.
Who cares, right? Like, and in fact, like chances are like, it is really difficult to, to really screw that stuff up. So like, give yourself permission to experiment and play. So like that's number one is just like, just get started even when it feels small and inconsequential. And, um, the second thing I would say is that this is especially important for business owners is that build up emergency funds.
Yes, saving for retirement is important, and please don't stash all of the extra cash you have available to yourself into a retirement account. Retirement accounts are great because they offer amazing tax benefits, which really allow you to grow your money and grow your wealth for your retirement years.
And because they offer those benefits, they come with all kinds of rules and restrictions, which makes it not impossible, but close to impossible to get your money or it's ipo. You can get the money, but you have to pay fees and penalties and all these things that you don't want to have to do. And as a business owner, the one thing that we know will happen is something unexpected.
So be saving money so you've got money that you can fall back on. Um, so just like saving money, just like into a checking account. Just build up an emergency savings fund. So, Don't, uh, don't pump money exclusively where you can't get it. So it's just like, it's a balanced approach, but again, it's like cultivating that practice of just contributing a, a little bit towards that emergency fund every week or two to that retirement account.
Just get in the habits as, as early as you can, and in fact, a little bit earlier, do things just a little bit earlier than you feel.
Whitney Owens: Definitely. Yeah. And, and I love what you're saying, just a little bit like, I think all of us could put away $10 a month, you know, even if you feel like you're really strapped for cash and Yeah.
It, it's the habit. It's the habit that you're creating and then you're gonna all of a sudden see that you can do more and then you're gonna be like, wow, what just happened? Um, and I love the Vanguard example, cuz you just did. The exact story of what I did. Like I had not started retirement. I was nervous.
I had started my practice and then I had my second child while I had my practice. Right? And it was just like con medical bills and all these things, right? So, mm, I was trying to keep myself from debt, which I did, you know? Um, but mm-hmm. It was like I didn't have any extra. And then finally one day I was like, Ooh, I might have like $50 extra, you know?
And, and so I was with my father-in-law, he was like, all right, let's start your vanguard, you know? And I was like, all right. And so that's what we did. We just sat down one day and started it and I was like, oh, that was a lot easier than I thought it was. Yes. You know? And then just kind of went from there.
And now I actually have retirement at my group practice, and I contribute to it and we do matching. And it's, it's really.
David Frank: Yeah, I, I think what you said there is like, so, so important. I want everyone to hear that, that when you went and did the thing, it was so much less scary and overwhelming. It's like that, that's the hard part.
The hard part is sitting there before you take the action and just, and, and we all do this, not just around money stuff. I'm sure you see clients and patients do it like all the time of just like sit there and ruminate and you think about the problem and it gets bigger and it feels impossible. And then when you go and do the thing, you're like, oh my God.
Like that was easy. Like it, maybe it wasn't easy, but it was so much easier than I thought it was gonna be. Wow. Does it feel good to have done it?
Whitney Owens: yeah. And so as far as like people who are listening and they're thinking, I would like a little extra help on this.
What are some services that are out there? Can you share a little bit about Turning
David Frank: Point? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, turning Point is it's a financial planning firm. I started it. It is designed exclusively for therapists, for licensed mental healthcare professionals. So I would encourage wherever you are at the stage of your career, whether you're still working for an agency, an employee in a group practice, starting out as a solo practitioner, building a group practice, whatever it is.
I have all kinds of free resource. On my website, it's turning point hq.com. Um, and yeah, just go there, see what you can find. I have free guides, uh, to download everything from private practice 1 0 1 that's specifically tailored for people that are just starting out and trying to figure out like, how do I get this practice off the ground all the way through to like the six financial fundamentals that every group practice owner needs to be thinking about when they're looking to protect and build, uh, the right level of wealth for them.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, that's great. And, and I'm obviously on your email list and you send that stuff out too, like different guides and plans and it's great. So if, for those that are listening, make sure that you jump on this email list as well so you can get all that information. Um, was there anything we left out that you wanted to make sure I include today?
David Frank: I don't think so. Like I, well the one last thing I will say is that just when it re as it relates back to mindset, You absolutely can do this. Anyone listening to this podcast has like the capabilities, has the intellectual horsepower. You've gone to grad school, you've passed licensing exams. You've done all these amazing things.
Don't let money intimidate you. It's totally okay to be intimidated. And just move into action, experiment with it. The sooner you get started, the better you will feel, um, and never hesitate to reach out. Uh, when you feel like you need support, you can do a lot of this on your own, but when you get stuck, reach out to other people.
Have conversations with your peers, interview professionals like me, just to see what is out there and just keep on, keep on learning, keep exploring, keep discovering. That'll be the key to your long-term success and financial.
Whitney Owens: This is so true. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show
David Frank: today.
Thanks, Whitney. It's really been fun.
Show Notes and Audio Production by James Marland
