WP 29 | Your Therapy Practice as a Spiritual Practice
In this episode of The Wise Practice Podcast, host Whitney Owens interviews Russell Jones, a psychotherapist who has been practicing since 1996 and recently wrote a book called "Spirit in Session." Jones also helps present the Association for Clinical Pastoral Education's Spiritual Integration in Psychotherapy (SIP) curriculum. Owens and Jones discuss the intersection of spirituality and therapy, and how to use one's therapy practice as a spiritual practice. Dr. Russell Siler Jones is the author of Spirit in Session: Working with Your Client’s Spirituality (and Your Own) in Psychotherapy (Templeton Press, 2019) and of ACPE’s SIP curriculum. He has practiced psychotherapy in Asheville, NC, since 1996 and directed the Residency in Psychotherapy and Spirituality for CareNet/Atrium Health Wake Forest Baptist since 2008. He and his wife Jeanine are parents of two adult children.
The Importance of Spirituality in Therapy
Jones notes that spirituality is an important aspect of the therapeutic process, as it "is a part of our makeup as human beings." He states that "all people have some sense of spirituality," and that therapists should integrate this aspect into their practice. Owens agrees, stating that "it's important that we honor the spiritual aspect of our client's lives," as it can provide valuable insight into their mental health.
Jones also emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and spirituality for therapists. He believes that "we have to be in touch with our own spirituality" in order to effectively integrate spirituality into our practice. Owens adds that this self-awareness can help therapists identify and overcome biases they may have towards certain clients.
Using Your Practice as a Spiritual Practice
Jones argues that therapists can use their practice as a spiritual practice by focusing on the present moment and connecting with their clients on a deeper level. He believes that therapists can achieve this by using mindfulness techniques, such as deep breathing and meditation. By doing this, therapists can become more attuned to their clients' needs and emotions, and create a more meaningful therapeutic experience. “Where is God moving in this person’s life? How are they connecting with god?”
Owens adds that therapists should also focus on creating a safe and welcoming environment for their clients. This can include using welcoming language, offering tissues or water, and avoiding judgmental statements. Jones agrees, stating that creating a safe space is essential to building a strong therapeutic relationship.
Balancing Work and Personal Life
“Your spiritual life is happening all the time.” Jones and Owens also discuss the challenges of balancing work and personal life, especially for therapists who are also parents. Jones shares his experience of starting a practice with his wife and renting an office space together to balance work and parenting. He believes that finding a "sweet mix" between professional and personal life is essential to creating a fulfilling career and family life.
Owens adds that self-care is essential for therapists, especially those who are parents. She suggests that therapists prioritize self-care by scheduling time for hobbies, exercise, and other activities that bring them joy.
Connecting with God's Spirit in Therapy
Whitney Owens and Russell Jones describe how their work is a conduit for God's Spirit. Whitney explains that therapy is about "working out our differences" and experiencing "love, healing, and compassion" with clients. Russell notes that when the spirit blows through someone's life, they may be hit hard by their conscience, leading to creative, courageous, or compassionate changes.
Russell and Whitney highlight the importance of being aware of the spirit's movement in therapy. They discuss how it is easy to have one's own agenda and try to push a treatment method or idea. Instead, they recommend being cognizant of where the spirit is moving and joining in it.
Russell talks about the importance of connecting with the wind of the spirit. He notes that it is like putting one's wings in a position to ride the currents of wind instead of trying to flap one's own way into something. Whitney notes that sometimes she has tried to push an idea that she knew in her gut was not where she was supposed to go. She recommends being open to the spirit's leading.
Following the Nudges of Spirit
Jones explains how his book came to be after a spiritual experience in nature. He shares that it is essential to learn to say yes to the nudges of spirit, even if it leads to mistakes. "Learning to say yes, even if the Yes you say turns out to be a mistake, there's grace to cover that too," says Jones. He encourages listeners to follow their nudges from spirit, even if it means doing something they do not want to do.
Finding the Spirit in the Mundane
Jones describes how therapy can become a spiritual practice by finding the spirit in the mundane moments of life. He shares how it is essential to be present in the moment, to listen deeply, and to honor the stories of others. "Therapy is a spiritual practice when we are really attentive to the person in front of us, and we are honoring them, and we are being present to the mystery of their lives," says Jones. By finding the spirit in everyday moments, therapy becomes a way of connecting to the divine.
Embracing the Mystery of Life
Jones explains how therapy can become a spiritual practice by embracing the mystery of life. He shares how therapy is not about having all the answers but being present to the questions. "I think that if we can hold questions and the mystery of life with curiosity and not anxiety, then we can be available to whatever comes in the therapy room," says Jones. By embracing the mystery of life, therapists can create a space for healing and transformation.
Practicing Spirituality in Therapy
Whitney and Russell end the podcast with tips on how to practice spirituality in therapy. They recommend being open to inspiration from people and being corrected and shaped by others. They also advise being grateful and practicing gratitude as a way of connecting with the wind of the spirit.
Quotes and Tips
Be aware of the spirit's movement and join in it instead of having your own agenda.
Connect with the wind of the spirit by being open to inspiration from people, being corrected and shaped by others, and practicing gratitude.
Be mindful of where the spirit is moving and how you can support your clients in that movement.
Be open to change and be willing to let go of ideas that do not align with the spirit's movement.
"Consider letting your therapy practice be a spiritual practice."
"A spiritual practice is anything we do with the intention of growing ourselves or allowing ourselves to be grown spiritually."
"Treating our therapy practice as a spiritual practice means coming to the therapy hour as a time, not just for our clients to grow and change, but for us to do that too."
"I'm encouraging you to receive this as one of the gifts of your job to let your practice be a spiritual practice."
Resources
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WP 29 | Your Therapy Practice as a Spiritual Practice
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Whitney Owens: Hello friends and welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. Looking forward to my interview today with my new friend Russell Jones, and let me tell you a little bit about him and then we'll jump into this episode. He is a doctorate and wrote a book recently called Spirit in Session, working with your client, spirituality and your Own and Psychotherapy, and he helps in presenting with the A C P E'S SIP curriculum.
He has practiced psychotherapy in Asheville, North Carolina since 1996 and directed the residency of Psychotherapy and spirituality for CareNet. Slash Atrium Health, wake Force Baptist since oh eight. He and his wife Janine, live in Asheville and they have two adult children. And Russell, thanks for coming on the
Russell Jones: show today.
Whitney, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah,
Whitney Owens: yeah. Well, I always love, uh, meeting friends of friends and Jane Carter, who was a previous guest on the show, introduced the two of us, and so I know we'll have a great
Russell Jones: conversation. Yes, Jane's awesome. And, uh, she speaks highly of you. I'm happy to be here too.
Whitney Owens: Wonderful. Well, let's kind of start out with you sharing a little bit more of your journey into kind of where you're at now, um, just so our audience can get to know you better.
Russell Jones: Thank you. Um, Well, let's see. Um, I am 61 years old, so I've been on the planet a little while and, uh, I was raised in the south by public school educators, um, raised in church.
Um, and I would say also their faith was not something they practiced just on Sunday. But it was an everyday thing. And so very fortunate to have been raised by them. They, this was, these were the years when the South Carolina schools integrated and so they were really in, in the heart of doing hard work and good work and drawing upon their faith to do it.
And um, so that's how I started. I was a pastor for a few years and. Uh, left that really because I wasn't, I, I say sometimes I wasn't mature enough to be a pastor. And what I mean by that mainly is that I wanted people to think and believe like I did. And I just got frustrated and, uh, nothing bad happened, you know, I didn't do anything stupid, but, um, Um, I just knew that I was trying to work something out that I hadn't, that needed to get worked out before I did that work again.
And then I never became a pastor again. I became a hospital chaplain and, uh, from hospital chaplaincy trained as a therapist. I trained in this, in the pastoral counseling tradition. Uh, this was training really for ministers who wanted to begin, uh, to be, to be therapists. And completed a doctorate in that field in 1999 and have been in Asheville since 96.
Was in a, um, a pastoral counseling practice here. Uh, my wife is a therapist. She and I together, we're in a, we're in a practice for 11 years, a group practice. Wonderful practice. Um, and then we launched our own practice in 2007. One. One of the things that might be interesting, I know you're a, you're a parent and talk on this show, I've heard you speak about, you know, what it's like to juggle your, your professional practice and your parenting and other parts of your life too.
But Janine and I really found this, this sweet mix. During those early years, when, when we, when we came to Asheville, our daughter was three and a half and our son was two months old, and we rented an office together, we shared an office together and, uh, she would be home with the kids in the mornings and I would be at work and then we'd flip midday and the next day maybe it was reversed, but it was a, it was a great way for us to both be.
Working professionally, but also having the relationship with our kids we wanted and the kind of family we wanted. So, um, that's my therapy practice. I know I'm talking a long time, sorry. But the other thing that's been a big part of my vocation for the last 15 years, I got invited to start a training program for associate licensed therapists for.
This outpatient counseling affiliate of the Wake Forest Baptist Health System in North Carolina. Uh, the, the, that affiliate is called CareNet. They have offices. We have offices from Coast Wilmington all the way to the mountains here in Asheville. And our training is for associate licensed therapist, every associate licensed therapist who comes to work for CareNet.
Um, It has to be in this training program, which emphasizes integration of spirituality and psychotherapy. So for 15 years, I've been able to have these deep relationships with people right at the start of their professional lives and help them learn how to move towards their clients, their client's spirituality, in really respectful ways, and also draw upon their own spirituality.
Um, I've, I also am kind of helped develop a program through, uh, a national organization called A C P E Training for Psychotherapists who wanna learn that at the Spiritually Integrated Psychotherapy training, which is now, we just did our first training in South Korea in January. So it's, it's really in a great space.
Um, we've got 20 something trainers here in the States. Um, And, and you mentioned I wrote a book too, so blah, blah, blah. That's a lot. Sorry. That, that's my journey. Hello people. That's who I am.
Whitney Owens: Yes. Well, hey, it's, it's a podcast interview, so we love hearing about it and I love hearing people's stories and God's movement and all the things.
So I appreciate you sharing all that with us. Um, and I'm excited Response. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to talking about our practice as a spiritual practice. Yes. And like what. What does that mean to have a spiritual practice? And let's kind of dive into that.
Russell Jones: All right. Um, this is on the next to last page in my book, honest to Goodness.
And, um, just I was concluding this is, this is a book for therapist really to kind of get oriented to what all is involved in in. You know, spirituality and religion are for the majority of people, and this is not just my opinion, this is statistically, this is the gallops and the Pew Research Centers, and yes, you know, most people in the United States consider themselves spiritual or religious, and so spirituality and religion, faith are.
Like big, big parts of people's motivation system and their resource system and their sense of who they are in the world and who others are. Um, and so it just makes so much sense to include it in the work we do as therapists with people, uh, not to shy away from that. Um, and so this is a book. Really to help therapists learn what that terrain is like.
If you're gonna be listening to people spiritually and trying to work with them in helpful ways, what are the kinds of things you need to know? But anyway, on the last page of this book, kind of wrapping it all up, I talk about letting your therapy practice be for you, a spiritual practice. Yeah. And spiritual practice is a, is a phrase some people know and some people don't.
You know, in, in, in more evangelical circles, like the one that I grew up in and, um, Baptist, um, we would call it your Walk with the Lord, right? Um, and. In other traditions, they, they used the phrase spiritual practice. And it means like anything you do with intention and sincerity to try to open your heart to, um, to God, and to the presence of God, the action of God, the leadership of God in your life.
And they're obviously, there're spiritual traditions that don't use the word God too. And, and they, their spiritual practice is there. So it can include so many things like going to worship. Spiritual practices can be praying or meditating. Spiritual practices can be some act of service or care. Right.
Spiritual practice can be the way you light a candle and pray with your family as you begin a meal. Mm-hmm. You know, the anythings you do intentionally to open your heart to the presence and movement of spirit, but our therapy practice can be a spiritual practice too. Right. Um,
and I mean that in two senses, like maybe one in one sense we can reflect on what's happening between ourselves and our clients with sort of a spiritual, um, with a spiritual mind or with through spiritual eyes and ears. Um, where is God moving in this person's life? Where, how are they feeling connected with God?
How are we, how are we feeling connected with God as we do this work with them? Um, but it's also, I think about the practice of not just reflecting, but a more sort of embodied like visceral, emotional experiential sense of God's presence. Within us and within our client and, uh, in that space and connection between us.
Um, just allowing the work you do not to be separate from your spiritual life, but to realize your spiritual life is happening all the time. And to pay attention to how the, how the connection you have with this person, the work you're sharing, the care you're offering. Um, is growing you and cha and shaping you spiritually.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think of it kind of twofold. Our work with our clients, right? And the compassion that Jesus gives to me to, you know, care for them and things like that. Um, but even as I run my business, cuz now I'm spending most of my time doing that, that grows me
Russell Jones: spiritually. How do you mean?
Like how does running your, I mean, I bet that's a like a gazillion word answer, but how is, how, how do you mean? You're, you're running, your business grows you spiritually. Yeah.
Whitney Owens: Like even here when I was listening to you, I was thinking about, you said the relationships between us. I was thinking about my therapists and how we experience God through one another.
Right. Love, healing, compassion, working out our differences. Mm-hmm. Um, and actually I've been thinking a lot about this event we're doing on Friday. We partner with an organization called Cure, which is a Georgia thing, but it helps raise money for children with cancer. And so we go to this benefit dinner every year and just the idea that we go to that and God is with us when we're there.
And we can share that with other people who need that healing, either physically or spiritually or emotionally, whatever that is. And so like we get to be kind of a conduit, if I used that word correctly. Yes. Into our community of, of Christ, of the Spirit.
Russell Jones: Right. Right. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and they get to be a conduit of Christ.
For you too, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All the
Whitney Owens: time. Yeah, all the time. Like I'll be discouraged about something, making a decision about something. I, one time one of my therapists was like, oh, Whitney, I had a dream about this, this, and this, because this is what ended up happening, and God worked it out. I was like, whoa.
Hmm hmm.
Russell Jones: Yeah. One of the, you know, just think about. I mean, I'm listening to you talk about this connection with your, the, the people you, you serve with your staff, therapists in your group, and the connection between you and also this shared connection in service that you're describing. Um,
I, for one of the thanks for me is, I'm always kind of blown away and, and I, I just by watching Spirit Blow across one of my client's lives or one of my supervisee's lives, and they start speaking in such a way or just this energy or will begins to gather in them in such a way. Um, that, that something creative and new or um, something courageous or something compassionate.
Um, oftentimes when spirit blows through someone's life, they get this, they get hit hard by the stick of conscience, right? Like the, they've been doing something and all of a sudden it just begins to break their heart or cause them pain that they've been. Living in such a way, or doing such a way. So anyway, the, the, one of the beautiful things about being a, being a therapist for me has been this really deep, intimate connection with other people, which is a connection with them, but it's also a place to watch in real time.
The wind of the spirit just start blowing through someone's life and stirring something up, you know, and then, and so that's a part of my practice. Mm-hmm. My, my own spiritual practice is just, Watching in awe or in gratitude or, you know, sometimes in it, it, sometimes, sometimes people help correct me and shape me too.
Um, I, I, I talk to some really good people, you know, and like the, the goodness in them, it's, it's like inspirational or motivational to me. Mm-hmm. So spiritual practice in. All these ways. I'm just kind of wondering what, how this is striking you or how do you imagine it striking?
Whitney Owens: Um, well, first of all, I just love talking about it, right?
Yeah. It, it gives you that light and that it, that joy, joy is probably the best word. Um, but as we, as I hear you talk about the wind, it's like, where, where is the wind moving? And how do I grab it? Not literally, but how do I move with
Russell Jones: it? Yeah. How do you, how do you put your wings in such a position that, that the wind moves.
Yeah. That, that you are riding the currents of wind instead of trying to flap your own way into something, right? Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. And so thinking about with clients, W us being like really cognizant of that instead of having our own agenda, oh, we're gonna do this treatment method or this thing. Like mm-hmm.
Well, where is spirit moving right now in this moment? And how do I join him in that? Yes. And in the way I run my business, like I can't tell you how many times I try to push something that I think is a great idea, and I just know in my gut that. You know, in my spirit mm-hmm. That's not where you're supposed to go.
Sometimes I do it anyway and I regret it later, but like, we're still
Russell Jones: Me too. Yeah. I, I, I, I vibe with that. And, uh, you know, in the therapy world, like there's this almost just like a bully kind of phrase and is called evidence supported treatment. Or evidence-based practice. And you know, it basically means like if you're doing this right, you're gonna be following protocols that have been researched and proven to be effective, you know, evidence-based.
But I also think that's a bit of overreach on the part of science and like the medical model. And so a phrase that I, that I've begun using a bit recently is not evidence, not evidence based treatment, but inspirationally based treatment. Mm-hmm. You know, cause I mean, inspiration and the word inspire and spirit, that's the same root, you know, respiration per perspiration, inspiration, um, conspire, you know, it's all that same word, breath, you know.
So breath and spirit are, From the same word. Mm-hmm. Um, but anyway, I really think it can be overdone and therapists can get sloppy or, and certainly do harm, but I think we need the balance of thinking of our treatment, our care as inspirationally based, like, like you were describing, like. Watching how Spirit is moving in someone's life and trying ourselves as therapist to get in step or swing with that instead of trying to force whatever we think is best on a client.
So anyway, uh, this, uh, it is not an either or. I do think we need to know what the evidence based. Practices are, but I think that we need to leave space for inspirationally based, uh mm-hmm. Moments in, in, in the work we do too.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. Well, kind of hearing you say it can do damage or sometimes be beneficial.
It's that idea of how do we present the inspiration to our clients. You know, like, like not presenting it in such a way of this is what I believe God's saying and blah, blah, blah. You know, like, hey, where, where are you feeling the spirit leading? And, and letting them kind of guide that and us take them on that journey together, I think is so important.
Russell Jones: I agree. And, and, and, and, and, you know, sometimes clients want us to offer suggestions to them or some menu of suggestions. Mm-hmm. You know, like, Um, and, and which I think is legit for people to ask of a therapist. Um, but, you know, I tread very carefully into that territory, and when I do, I almost always say something like, okay, well I, I'll, I'll say some of what I think about this, but I'd like for you to listen to me with about 40 or 50% of your brain and heart, but then listen inside with the other.
50 or 60% because what I say is not really as important as what you hear coming back inside. Listen for like a yes or a no, or, and I'm not sure yet. Um, but I, I'm really just trying to set people up to listen more for the, um, the nudges of spirit than to whatever I might say. Um, you know, or when, when people are in crisis, they want.
Support from the outside, and that's, that's legit. Right. But, but we're al the long game is always, we want them to know how to draw upon the support that's always within. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I'm always trying to, uh, play to that, to that, um, play, play that long game with people.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, we're, we're all trying to get our clients outta therapy.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. We want them to have the strength and the spirit that they need to do the work without us, even though I love meeting with them.
Russell Jones: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: So did you wanna read that, check that page in your book?
Russell Jones: Ooh, well, I'll do it. And, um, It may be a little repetitious. We'll see. I, I don't know.
I don't, I don't remember exactly what I said, but if it's repetitious I bet you can cut it outta here. Right. No problem. So, yeah. Okay. So says, uh, consider letting your therapy practice be a spiritual practice. A spiritual practice is anything we do with the intention of growing ourselves or allowing ourselves to be grown spiritually.
It might be something we set aside time to do, like meditating, attending worship somewhere, or performing some active service. Or it might be an attitude or posture We weave into our everyday activities, walking with mindfulness, practicing gratitude, praying for strangers, softening our anger when it arises, or attuning our hearts to see the face of God in others.
Hmm. Treating our therapy practice as a spiritual practice means coming to the therapy hour as a time, not just for our clients to grow and change, but for us to do that too. It's not just them who are having the opportunity to soften their constriction, compulsion, fear, hardness of heart, hopelessness, and desire to control everything we are too.
I cannot tell you how many times I've had this experience. A client is ready to do a deep piece of work ready, consciously, and with intention or ready with no conscious intention ready because some strong emotion in them with a mind of its own senses, an opportunity to be held, heard and healed. But I'm not ready.
Maybe I'm tired. Maybe my last hour was difficult and I feel fragile or rattled. Maybe I'm not sure I'll know what to do, whatever the reason, I just don't feel confident. I've got what it takes to be present to the intensity I know will be part of these next 30 or 40 minutes. Will I make myself available anyway?
Will I say yes to taking the next steps with this client? Sometimes the answer is no. Of course, some days I choose to play it safe, but sometimes the answer is yes. Even though I'm not sure it's going to go well or be okay, I say yes. And I find again and again that when I say yes to these moments, when I agree to proceed, not by my own sense of strength, confidence, or power, but proceed all the same.
Without fail. Without fail, I am given the ability to do my part. Something important happens for the client, and I am nourished by what unfolds. In this way, the practice of therapy has strengthened my capacity to trust. It has grown my ability to be patient when I feel lost, to keep trying, when I feel helpless to ask for help from a client or a colleague when I'm not sure what's going on or what to do next.
To forgive my clients when they hurt me and to be forgiven when I hurt them. I'm encouraging you to receive this as one of the gifts of your job to let your practice be a practice. Hmm.
I'm glad
Whitney Owens: that you read it. Mm-hmm. It feels, feels sacred. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I loved the. The vulnerability as well. Cuz we, we feel that mm-hmm. We feel that with our clients.
Russell Jones: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a really wonderful word. And it does speak a truth, like a deep truth. Um, if it, if, if our, almost always, if our client is gonna go to some vulnerable, vulnerable place.
Even if we're not telling them chapter in verse the details of our own vulnerability and self disclosing in that way, there's, there is a real vulnerability that we experience too. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, definitely. So remind me the name of the book.
Russell Jones: Yeah, thank you. Uh, it's called Spirit in Session, working with your client's, spirituality and your own in psychotherapy and.
Yeah. Um, I, I tell this story in the book, but I had been teaching residents our, where our residents at this, in this residency program at CareNet, the Wake Forest Baptist, um, system. I've been teaching them for 10 years or so, and, um, We had just lost a member of our family. We, you know, so we were in a pretty strong season of grief.
Um, and I was out running, I, I was listening to one of your podcasts, so I know you're a runner too, Whitney. Yeah. I was out running and I was running in the woods, and I, we came out of the woods to this pasture. So out of this, out of the trees into this great clearing, and I, I crossed. I kind of crossed through this gate and in that moment I just heard this, not an audible, but like a real clear sense, like you need to write up what you've been teaching for these past 10 years.
And, um, they're therapists outside that residency program who are looking for support in this way. And, uh, so anyway, that's, that's where that came from. And. Yeah. Hmm. I know you, cause again, I've listened to, to your podcast. I know you have said yes to lots of nudges from spirit, and I know that people listening to this have had that experience too.
Um, um, so yeah, just learning to say yes, even if the Yes you say turns out to be a mistake, there's grace to cover that too. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, it's, uh, usually a nudge to do something I don't really wanna do, and then he empowers me to do it anyway. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And then I'm grateful.
Russell Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't wanna sit in this chair all those hours writing that book, but I did.
Whitney Owens: Yes. Well, I'm glad that you did, and now you have a gift to give to the world, um, that needs it. So, and tell people how do they get in touch with you if they wanna talk to you more. Get
Russell Jones: your book. The book is available anywhere you would buy a book, you know, any of the online, uh, you can just put in my name, Russell Seiler Jones, and you'll find it.
And that's my website also Russell seiler jones.com. I've got a newsletter I send out mm, once a month or so. Um, and where I share about trainings that I'll be leading and where I will include a link to this podcast when it drops and, uh, Usually a few other little bonus reflections. So Russell cider jones.com is probably the best way to find me.
Whitney Owens: Great, great. Well I will be jumping on there and getting on your email list when we get done with this. Okay. And I'm so grateful for the connection with you today and just such a, it's the things that we know, but we need to keep saying 'em over and over, you know, keep putting spirit in front of us cuz I can get in the way all day long, Uhhuh.
So I feel really grateful for this conversation today.
Russell Jones: I do too. Thanks for what you're doing in the world and, um, and, and, and does to, thanks to you Whitney, but also listeners, thank you for what you're doing in the world and the ways you are opening your lives, uh, to be grown and shaped and to be of service.
Hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yes. Thank you.
Show Notes and Audio Production by James Marland
