WP 21 | Preventing Burnout in your Practice with Kelly Higdon
Kelly Higdon is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the co-founder of ZynnyMe, a company that helps therapists grow their private practices. In a recent podcast episode, Higdon discussed the issue of burnout among therapists and shared some tips and advice on how to avoid it.
The Importance of Self-Care
Higdon emphasized the importance of self-care as a way to prevent burnout. “Is there room for your own therapy, your own healing modalities, your own consultation, those kinds of things of like who is taking care of you in your business?” She noted that many therapists neglect their own self-care in favor of taking care of others. However, self-care is essential for therapists to maintain their well-being and avoid burnout. Higdon recommended finding someone who is supporting you in your business and reach out to them regularly. There is a community aspect to self-care.
Remember to “Set Boundaries”
“Where are your boundaries? What have you been starting with, and are you holding to them?” Setting boundaries is critical for therapists to prevent burnout. Higdon suggested that therapists set clear boundaries around their work hours and communicate them clearly to their clients. Following through on your commitments is an excellent way to prevent resentment and burnout “And then when people cancel and you don't enforce and you don't follow through on your commitments, Resentment. It starts and then it moves into agitation. Then it moves into anger and frustration, and then that gets that shows up in the therapeutic relationship.”Other ways to set boundaries include not taking calls or emails outside of work hours, taking breaks between sessions, and setting limits on the number of clients they see each day.
Therapists often fall into the trap of martyrdom. While they take of everyone else their own needs are trampled. Higdon also stressed the importance of keeping your boundaries with clients and staff as a way to prevent burnout. She noted that many therapists struggle with boundaries, often feeling responsible for their everyone’s well-being. However, Higdon emphasized that living this way is not healthy and builds up anger and resentment. When working with clients setting expectations around communication, appointment scheduling, and payment. It can also involve setting limits on the amount of time spent in the session or the number of sessions offered. With employees, it means attracting the people who buy into your vision and mission and having honest conversations with them on what you can and can’t do.
“Be Honest and Authentic”
Being authentic is a way to protect yourself from burnout. “…getting really clear about who you feel passionate about working with, knowing that you can change the messaging and who you wanna work with.” If you get excited about what you do this show up in the session. Higdon also emphasized the importance of honesty and authenticity in setting boundaries with clients. She advised therapists to be transparent about their own limitations and boundaries, as well as to communicate their concerns and expectations clearly. This can help to establish a sense of trust and respect between therapist and client, which can ultimately help to prevent burnout.
“Stay Connected with Colleagues”
Finally, Higdon recommended that therapists stay connected with colleagues as a way to prevent burnout. There is a community element to being healthy. She noted that many therapists feel isolated in their work, which can contribute to burnout. However, connecting with colleagues can provide support, inspiration, and a sense of community.
You can prevent burnout
In conclusion, burnout is a significant issue among therapists, and self-care and setting boundaries with clients are crucial to prevent it. Kelly Higdon’s tips and advice on how to avoid burnout can be valuable to therapists looking to prioritize their well-being and maintain their effectiveness in their work. By setting boundaries, taking
Links and resources
Therapist Burnout: Your Guide to Recovery and a Joyful, Sustainable Private Practice
Wise Practice Facebook Community Group
Visit Whitney Owens Consulting
Email your questions to Whitney
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WP 21 | Preventing Burnout in your Practice with Kelly Higdon
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Whitney Owens: Hello and welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. I'm excited today to have my dear friend Kelly Hickton on the show, and I wanna tell you a little bit about her. She's an L M F T and believes that private practice is one of the solutions to increasing
Kelly Higdon: access to quality mental
Whitney Owens: health in our communities.
Whitney Owens: Her passion lies in empowering. Private practice owners to serve at their highest and best improving clinical outcomes through their business planning. And to break the statistic that mental health clinicians are the worst paid master's degree. She's helped thousands through training, education, and coaching.
Whitney Owens: Hey, Kelly, how you doing today? Good. I'm
Kelly Higdon: so glad to be here with you. I love time with you, Whitney.
Whitney Owens: Aw, well I feel the same and you know, it was wonderful. We just recorded for Kelly's show and now we get to record again and podcasting's like one of my favorite things to meet really cool people. So, but I'm really excited about our topic today cause we're gonna talk about burnout, which.
Whitney Owens: All of us have experienced at some point in our lives. Mm-hmm. , but before we kinda go into that, can you share a little bit more about yourself, um, about your business, kind of what you do?
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. I am partnered with Miranda Palmer and together we do Zny Me, that's the name of our consulting. Practice and we have, um, a ton of coaches and a team that help therapists, um, start, grow and expand their practices beyond the couch.
Kelly Higdon: Uh, we have an online business school that we've had for many years. We've been doing this since 2010. So yeah, I've been. Loving on therapists for many, many years and have seen them go through lots of ebbs and flows in their businesses, and I really believe in sustainability in the private practice world.
Kelly Higdon: I believe this is work you can do well beyond retirement if you choose, but I believe it has to be done in a way that is burnout proof . So, . Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Well, thank you for that. I feel like we have so many people that kinda go in and out of different communities and things, and I just consistently hear such good stuff about your courses in Xmi.
Whitney Owens: So I just wanted to like throw that out there to the audience to, to know that, and you do great work, especially with the marketing aspect. Um, So Kelly, tell me more about burnout. How do we know if we're reaching burnout as
Kelly Higdon: therapists? Hmm. I think there's an a lot of , initial , uh, stages. And usually when people reach out for help, they're in the later stages of the burnout. Um, Some of the ways that it shows up is in avoiding your work. Um, it can also show up in, you know, not picking up the phone when people call or not responding to emails and things like, there's just these kind of avoidance things.
Kelly Higdon: Um, You might also notice how when you wake up, how you feel about going in to do the work. And then some of the interesting things, it can also show up clinically. Um, there's less of a tolerance window, um, with projection and transference in the session. Um, there can be more blaming, um, and. There can also be people who tend to start loosening their boundaries and start saying yes to all kinds of clients or sorts of services that they don't really wanna do or would've never done before.
Kelly Higdon: So as we break down and, and get tired and warn those boundaries can diffuse and we don't have the energy to stay. True to ourselves in, um, in integrity. And I don't think that people who are burnt out are intentionally trying to create chaos or cause harm, but it's these little like micro decisions from fatigue that lead to like a snowball effect of the burnout.
Kelly Higdon: Mm.
Whitney Owens: Those were such good examples. Like I can, I can see those things. I'm sitting here going, Ooh. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and isn't it so interesting how people who are burned out say yes to more things like, right. Yeah. Shouldn't it be the opposite? But I hear it. It's like their boundaries are let down. Is that what
Kelly Higdon: you're saying?
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. They're just too tired. Right? They're worn down and they're not listening to themselves. We end up in burnout because we've put wisdom to the side. Yeah, right. Like you're not honoring what your body's telling you, what your heart is telling you, what your spirit is telling you, what your brain is telling you.
Kelly Higdon: And when those things go offline or you ignore them, that is where the burnout then creeps in and takes over. Mm. .
Whitney Owens: Yeah. I'm curious in, I don't know if you'll know this, but like, are there statistics on how often people have burnout as therapists? Or does every therapist go through burnout at some point?
Kelly Higdon: I think every human being has some bit of burnout.
Kelly Higdon: Right. But I think in our field, we are more at risk for it because it is a helping industry. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so when you. Being helpful and AER or a service into a business model, um, they conflict a little bit, right in ideology. Mm-hmm. , right? Because capitalism says make money and then helping people says, no, help others.
Kelly Higdon: And then they feel like they're in conflict. And so burnout is not because of, we could say, okay, the pandemic gave me burnout. The pandemic gave you stress, right? But burnout comes from your business. Burnout by definition, looks the same as like depression and an anxiety disorder, but it's ideology is from the business.
Kelly Higdon: So what happens is covid happened or some tragedy happened, and you didn't adjust the business accordingly. So if the business doesn't shift to the circumstance or the stressor, , then that business is gonna be a really beautiful, uh, playground for burnout to come in and take over. And I think there's this, we can get really rigid.
Kelly Higdon: You start a business, you think it's gonna be a certain way, but life is asking it to be something different. And instead you're having business dictate your life, which is gonna burn you out. But if you have your life dictate your. And tell it how it needs to be, then you're less likely to have burnout because you're adjusting and you're constantly in tune with this relationship, this other part of yourself that you have extricated turned into a business, and if you're communicating with that and you're being responsive, it's a relationship.
Kelly Higdon: It changes what relationship does not change. Even like therapists in their practice. They will, oh, I don't wanna change my fee. I don't wanna change, like, when I do sessions, you know, I, I, it'll be too hard for my clients. I think that that is unrealistic, and I think it is a therapeutic misstep because how are we gonna teach clients to navigate changes in their own relationships if we can't do that with them?
Kelly Higdon: Mm-hmm. . And how are we going to expect our business to serve us if we don't ask it to change to what we need? So, Hmm.
Whitney Owens: I love it. I could sit and listen to you talk all day. .
Kelly Higdon: You're funny. I'm like drawing
Whitney Owens: in. Um, okay. And so I was saying, I was thinking about, cuz I own a group practice, right? My employees, right?
Whitney Owens: I mean, you're saying, okay, well the business owner can change the business to reflect the needs of the community or your own needs. Mm-hmm. . But what if you're working out a business or working out a practice and you're experiencing burnout? Right. You can't make the changes. What do you, what would you say for that?
Kelly Higdon: Right. Well as well, first I wanna talk to the group practice owner. I really do believe in offering what you can offer, right, of like, and that means it aligns with you, your values and not stepping into martyrdom. That is a recipe for resentment, again, which will ignite the burnout. So if you create a practice that really does suit your needs, you wanna find people that align with that.
Kelly Higdon: and if those people don't align with it, then they aren't right for your practice. . It is not about bending and adjusting so much that then you give up what you've created for yourself in order to take care of others. Right oxygen mask on you first, before you put it on others. And this is uncomfortable because sometimes group practice owners, it is again, another service that they're doing and then they come at it with, I wanna help these people.
Kelly Higdon: And so then they put their needs to the side. I think there are ways to do group practice that um, can. Not be oppressive. That can promote health and balance, but your ability and what your capacity is to offer balance comes from your own privilege, and other people may need more than what you can offer.
Kelly Higdon: And it's just not gonna be a good fit. And if you are in that situation where you are burnt out, let's figure out why. You know, where is the burnout coming from? Is it from the clients you're seeing? What has happened to the boundaries? Do you need pull back on your hours? You can ask that of your group practice owner and say, I'm noticing these things.
Kelly Higdon: is there room for me to have a sabbatical? Is there room for me to take a vacation? Is there room for me to pull back? Can I stop seeing couples? They're wearing me out? You know, those kinds of things. And if the group practice owner says, no, it's not in alignment. They need you to do those things, then maybe you don't need to be there anymore.
Kelly Higdon: You know, it's about finding people who can. There's enough room. With that group practice owner and its employees that everyone is taken care of, but not at the sacrifice of the other. Hm.
Whitney Owens: Yes. This is actually what I'm currently working on in my group practice. Mm-hmm. . So I, I appreciate that. And I was the, the first one you said, the martyrdom, like, I didn't want to hurt anybody, so I'm gonna sacrifice everything to keep these people and make 'em happy.
Whitney Owens: And Yeah. Especially as I've grown, it's like you, you can't, because actually it makes things more confusing, right. People's needs aren't met as well and all that. So I'm like, really? Trying to work on policies, procedures. Yeah. But also helping people figure out that they can't have it all. Yeah. And if they need something that I can't provide, that it's okay for them to be somewhere else.
Whitney Owens: Yeah.
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. I think more often than not, We think we're protecting, but we're actually hurting. If we could just be honest, , like, I wish I could give you a sabbatical. I cannot. Mm-hmm. , that just doesn't work for me. So here are the options I can offer you, and if that doesn't work for you, You're your own person.
Kelly Higdon: You're gonna do what's right for you. Mm-hmm. . But then we get fearful and so we do, we bend and sway because we are afraid of losing someone again. Why do we avoid the change? You know, we need to work through our own grief of like, people are gonna come and go in group practice. They're not gonna be with you forever.
Kelly Higdon: You know? You wouldn't be with someone forever. So we can't expect that of our employees or contractors or wherever you have it set up. Mm-hmm. . So it's being loving and saying, being really clear. You know, avoiding and like hemming and hawing around things, that's where you're gonna end up in trouble.
Kelly Higdon: Definitely.
Whitney Owens: And I've been there. I'm working on it. Mm-hmm. , you do get in trouble. . Um, alright, so let's go back to the kind of the practice owners, cuz most of the people listening own practices. And do you have some steps for burnout? Yeah. Tips. Let's go through some of those.
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. I think, let's look at Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.
Kelly Higdon: Some of the burnout is, is your business providing you the income that you need to take care of yourself? You know, um, I've had chronic health conditions, Miranda's had chronic health conditions. I require a , a lot of maintenance, , you know, I go to Rolf Fig, I, you know, I do different like body work and things like that for pain.
Kelly Higdon: And so I have a different kind of expense in the medical side of things. And if my business is not meeting the needs that I. Have in order to be able to function in the world physically, something needs to change in the financial data of my business. Or let's say I have to work so many hours to make that I'm getting the money, but then I don't have the time.
Kelly Higdon: Then we need to look at what needs to shift and then time and how does that impact the fee, right? So that I can take care of myself. Is there room for your own therapy, your own healing modalities, your own consultation, those kinds of things of like who is taking care of you in your business? Mm-hmm. , you may be a business owner.
Kelly Higdon: That's really lovely and it is a fairytale to think that it's just you. I am not where I am in where I am in my business because I did it. And if any business owner tells you that, , they are not being honest with themselves because it takes community. It either takes someone referring to you or someone giving you a tip or you being inspired by someone's story.
Kelly Higdon: We all impact each other. So who is supporting you in your business, and are you reaching out to them? It doesn't have to be a coach or consultant. It could be a friend, a colleague. It could be your accountant. I don't know. But that also, so in addition to like the financial piece, there's a community aspect.
Kelly Higdon: Are you getting the support, the nurturing care that you need in order to be able to make the decisions you need to make in order to be able to have the skills to look at the things you need to take care of? Then there's some other things too of like, I think the informed consent is just a great place to start.
Kelly Higdon: Where are your boundaries? What have you been starting with, and are you holding to them? And if not, then let's change the informed consent to say what it really means is, I wish you wouldn't cancel, but if you do, okay. If that's the way you do it, all right. But if you say, I charge for cancellations after 48, before 40, after 48 hours, or whatever, and you don't follow through with that, there's a therapeutic implication, but there's also an implication to you that those little things are the things that create the burnout because you're not living in integrity and it wears you down.
Kelly Higdon: And then when people cancel and you don't enforce and you don't follow through on your commitments, Resentment. It starts and then it moves into agitation. Then it moves into anger and frustration, and then that get that shows up in the therapeutic relationship. So looking at your form consent and the boundaries that you have, are they really working for you?
Kelly Higdon: Why did you pick them? You know, I've heard other people talk about like, you know how they do sliding scale, for example, and. Some of a therapist's ability in how they do sliding scale in their practice comes from their own privilege. They're in a situation financially where they can afford to take sliding scale.
Kelly Higdon: Not everyone is, but people feel like you must. And there's interesting, like can we dissect what we thought we must do and really step into is must I or is this just something that I was taught and I just assumed as like, The commandments, , you know, because if you're going to create something, it needs to be really reflective of you, your truth, your ability, um, and for you to be able to follow through.
Kelly Higdon: So looking at where those boundaries you ha you originally set. Are you living in them? Are they working for you and are they working for the clients? So there's like that financial piece, the community piece, and then the relationship piece with your clients. Hmm.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. Uh, It's a good, it's a good topic and yeah, it's so much about the idea of burnout and so just as I'm kind of reflecting on where my practice is now with my employees mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: like I'm creating those boundaries, which is making me feel better. Mm-hmm. , you know, because now I feel like. Oh, I could like take a breath because I'm not always having to think about that. I'm not always having to wonder about that. Mm-hmm. , I, in fact, sometimes they'll come to me and be like, wait, what is the policy on this?
Whitney Owens: And I have to go to the policy and be like, that's what I said. You know? And like I'm implementing that right now because it's in writing. Yeah. Yeah. And so we need to do that with our informed consent.
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. Yeah. And we, I, I think it deserves review. At least annually, your life is going to change. You know, like maybe you could do a 24 hour cancellation policy, but something has changed in your situation where you're a caregiver and you need time.
Kelly Higdon: To, um, notify people that are helping you out with caregiving, you know, things like that. So the policy needs to change, you know, maybe you can't sit for five hours like you used to be able to. Heck, I can't. I used to be able to do like eight to 10 session days. I don't know how I did that. That was many, many years ago, 15 years ago or whatever.
Kelly Higdon: And now I would not, like, my brain doesn't work that way anymore, you know? If I never adjust the business to take care of me, I will burn out. He down. Mm-hmm. , these are great tips, .
Whitney Owens: All right, so how can, how can we move past the informed consent,
Kelly Higdon: how to move past it?
Whitney Owens: Is there, are there any other like tips past the informed consent that
Kelly Higdon: you would recommend to therapists?
Kelly Higdon: Yeah, I think there's also, you know, We wrote a book on therapist burnout, and we go through kind of the roadmap of. You start with what is the vision of the practice? Does it really suit your needs? You can look at your schedule, the size of your caseload, who you're attracting into your practice, and then start shifting those things with your marketing.
Kelly Higdon: Um, changing, adding in some processes to automate things or asking for help on things that you've been putting off and beating yourself up about. You know, my husband's a bookkeeper and. I think he sees the like psychic burden people carry because they know like taxes are coming and they don't wanna deal with it and they feel so guilty and we never consider about how all these little choices really burden us.
Kelly Higdon: No one else is upset that you didn't get your books done or didn't have this process done. It's eating away at you. So looking at processes, outsourcing can be helpful as well. And I think a lot of the marketing too, of getting really clear about who you feel passionate about working with, knowing that you can change the messaging and who you wanna work with.
Kelly Higdon: That's one of the fears that a lot of people get stuck in is if I work with couples and then I get burnt out on couples and I just can't do any more couples work. You can pivot, you know, it's fine. You know, looking at your marketing and, and shifting it to be more clear about who you are, what you do, how you work, where's your brilliance so that you get more and more people that are really aligned with that.
Kelly Higdon: Because I think that passion feeds off of passion. So if you have clients that come in that are really excited to work with you, , that's always fun, right? You get excited because they saw something in you and you see something in them that you can support with. That synergy keeps us going and floating through in our work to thwart the burnout.
Kelly Higdon: Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Yeah. I mean, I think for me this, the big takeaway from, I'm hearing from you, this is kind of more big picture, but a lot of times when I hear burnout, I just think about the clinical work. Mm. You know, but you're really honing in on this concept of it's not just that.
Kelly Higdon: It's how you run your
Whitney Owens: business.
Whitney Owens: Yes. You know, and that is such an important distinction that I think a lot of people don't talk about. So I appreciate, you know, you bringing that into, Picture.
Kelly Higdon: Yeah. If you think about systems, right? We were raised in certain systems, whether you worked in nonprofits, government or whatever, when you were in your training and things like that, you likely brought some of those systems, the, the values, the processes into your practice, and that they were oppressive and they didn't work for you anymore.
Kelly Higdon: And so without like filtering through your values and understanding yourself and your needs, You're setting up the foundation of your business to not support you to actually cause harm or oppress you. And so this is about, you know, people talk about, I'm burned out, I need a vacation, I need a sabbatical, I need a bubble bath, I need these kinds of things.
Kelly Higdon: But you could do all the breaks and then you come back and the system is still oppressive. Mm-hmm. . So if you don't change the system, you can't shift the burnout. At all. And I do think, I do think sometimes the clinical work can tire you, but if you aren't paying attention to what you feel ignited by and shifting that clinical work, then yes.
Kelly Higdon: and that comes down again to your marketing, knowing your niche and the types of services. I have clients that like have realized I'm done with one-on-one. I wanna do intensives. I like doing like two, three days, E M D R, like intensives. We blend other things, we do body work, all this kind of stuff. And then they, I send them back to their regular therapist.
Kelly Higdon: Mm-hmm. that they just love that because they realized that the day to day sitting was just, It was not good for their body or it wasn't good for them energetically. Mm-hmm. . So like you can shift the clinical work. There's choices in that too. And that's all part of your business plan, right? So they're all tied together.
Kelly Higdon: You shift from individual work to intensivess. It's gonna shift your informed consent and how you do the boundaries. It's gonna shift your marketing, it's gonna shift the financial plan and how you charge for that. So they all are tied together. It's like that web, you pull one string, it tightens the other, it pulls the rest of the web with it, you know, kind of thing.
Kelly Higdon: Yeah.
Whitney Owens: Yeah. I love how you're talking about just the idea of bringing new things into your business that ignite you and mm-hmm. , that, that creative energy, so burnout's not necessarily about pulling things away or only changing things, it's about sometimes adding things that bring you
Kelly Higdon: value and excitement.
Kelly Higdon: Yes. Without. But you still, when you add, wanna make sure that you're not adding it with the same problems that you had with the original. So for example, if you don't have clear boundaries with your one-on-one services, you may replicate that when you bring in something with your intensives or retreats or whatever else you decide to create.
Kelly Higdon: So it is looking at the whole thing because. I think some people you, it takes insight. It takes some time in slowing down and they're just like, I'm just gonna do something else. Yes. But you're still bringing the mentality, the processes, the way you approach stuff to this new something else, and you're gonna burn out just the same if you don't make a change in the foundation.
Kelly Higdon: Mm-hmm. .
Whitney Owens: Most definitely. Well, tell us more about your book and how can people
Kelly Higdon: get ahold of it? Yeah, you can find it on Amazon. Just look at therapists burnout. It's, um, the full title is Therapist Burnout, your Guide to Recovery, and a Joyful Sustainable Private Practice. And then there, um, there's a ton of worksheets and trainings that you can download, um, from the book.
Kelly Higdon: Um, to help you really think through what needs to shift. Because if you feel like running away, I totally understand and you maybe do need a break, but when you come back, I want you to come back to something that's sustainable, not something that's just gonna re, re burn you out, re burn you out. Is that a term?
Kelly Higdon: Mm-hmm. , um, in the future. And instead give you a shift that you're needing and. I think it's the kind of work that, what I love about it is, is that as you take care of yourself, you're taking care of your clients. It's one of those, like working on your business, is it has a clinical impact. It improves your outcomes.
Kelly Higdon: A burnout therapist is not gonna get as great outcomes as a rested, balanced, healthy therapist, right? Like mm-hmm. , because what, what? Influences outcomes is attunement and present. And you cannot be present. You cannot tell me you are fully present when you are seeing 50 clients a week and you don't have time for your relationships and you, you are not making time for integrating what you believe.
Kelly Higdon: Your faith, whatever it is, like there's no practices and taking care of you, and you're gonna tell me that you're gonna get the same great clinical outcomes. Maybe, but over time, that's gonna wear down and the foundation is gonna show that the business is dictating the life and not the life dictating the business.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. . So true. Yeah. Yeah. And so we will have a link to your book in the show notes so that people can grab that. Um, and Zoni me is doing lots of really cool stuff. Um, and then I have some freebies here that you're giving to the audience. So, um, it's a free private practice library, so it's zoni me.com/free.
Whitney Owens: Can you tell us a little more about
Kelly Higdon: that? We have over 15 hours of free trainings on our site, so, and I've had lots of people tell me like, That's all I needed. Um, that's our way of giving back to the community. And if you're like, I can't afford training, I can't afford coaching, great. Take one of these and apply it and it could really change your practice.
Kelly Higdon: Hmm.
Whitney Owens: Thank you so much for that. Yeah. And is there anything we didn't cover today? Question I didn't ask that we wanna
Kelly Higdon: hit? No, I think, I just want people to know that if you have burnout, you are not alone. Um, I'm recovering from my own and making changes in the business as we speak. I think I had to adapt after Covid and I put my blinders on, and now I'm waking up to, oh, I need different things and making adjustments.
Kelly Higdon: So this is an ongoing development process. This is not like, Oh, I solved it. . No. It is a relationship. It's a relationship that needs nurturing a relationship with yourself and the part of yourself that's in the business tending to it. You deserve that. You deserve loving yourself through this process. If you are finding yourself hustling and grinding and all these kinds of things, and telling yourself just in the beginning, and then it'll get better.
Kelly Higdon: There will be no better because there won't be much left of you to enjoy it. Mm-hmm. . So why not enjoy every step of it? It does not have to be hard. We could find some ease. Mm-hmm. ,
Whitney Owens: definitely. Well, Kelly, this has been wonderful. I've been soaking it up myself, as you can tell . So I'll be looking at some things when we're done and I really appreciate you taking the time and look
Kelly Higdon: forward to reading your book.
Kelly Higdon: Awesome. Thanks Whitney.
Podcast Production and Show Notes by James Marland
